What I see when I do my forms.

[windwalker099]

It’s hard to sus out the BS in a video

I have found that what people often dismiss as BS is something they have not yet experienced. Once experienced, it is no longer considered BS.

I spent a large part of my life disproving others' ideas about CMA through Tibetan White Crane. Challenging the prevailing notion that "CMA didn't look like what was practiced when applied.

Looking back, I realize that this effort was somewhat "pointless." However, it helped me develop by interacting with many different styles and stylists. This process allowed me to understand my limitations and identify areas for improvement.

With what is called IMA , I find a similar situation. The difference now is that I recognize the futility of arguing about it with others on the internet.

The internal harmonies cannot be experienced without the physical realities of the three external

It is said "from outside to inside, from inside to outside"

Those who went through or are going through this process can have a discussion on it because they're speaking from the same framework, not trying to prove or disprove the framework.

They for the most part can agree and resonate with either videos or experiences
written about.

Getting past the "prove it" or it's "Wuxia"

This board
Obviously has some long time and highly skilled practitioners
with very good conversation's on many levels.

Even with disagreements, it's informative , offering food for thought as to what or why there is disagreement..

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have found that what people often dismiss as BS is something they have not yet experienced. Once experienced, it is no longer considered BS.

I spent a large part of my life disproving others' ideas about CMA through Tibetan White Crane. Challenging the prevailing notion that "CMA didn't look like what was practiced when applied.

Looking back, I realize that this effort was somewhat "pointless." However, it helped me develop by interacting with many different styles and stylists. This process allowed me to understand my limitations and identify areas for improvement.

With what is called IMA , I find a similar situation. The difference now is that I recognize the futility of arguing about it with others on the internet.







It is said "from outside to inside, from inside to outside"

Those who went through or are going through this process can have a discussion on it because they're speaking from the same framework, not trying to prove or disprove the framework.

They for the most part can agree and resonate with either videos or experiences
written about.

Getting past the "prove it" or it's "Wuxia"

This board
Obviously has some long time and highly skilled practitioners
with very good conversation's on many levels.

Even with disagreements, it's informative , offering food for thought as to what or why there is disagreement..

On the “prove it” point, I realize it’s futile to argue over some points. I also realize it’s just ego that drives the challenge part of me. I always thought of it in terms of “ if they beat me, I will train with them to learn what they know”. So I always tried to start those kinds of interactions with polite questions in case they were legitimate. Unfortunately, almost all of the ones that fail the smell test also fail to produce a measurable result. Most of those were doing the pretend Fa Jin thing. There are FAR more bull pucky peddlers in that arena. I have met exactly 3 people that impressed me, and maybe 50 that were straight up con men. My Sigung said at least 99% are phonies, I think it’s more. So, my default is “ prove it”, or can they do tricks when I’m really moving on them with force and intention? The answer is and has been almost always a “no”.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I spent a large part of my life disproving others' ideas about CMA ... Looking back, I realize that this effort was somewhat "pointless."

If you throw a simple "groin kick, face punch" combo at your opponent. If he can't deal with that, what does that mean?

I think a simple test like this can distinguish a fake from real.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, my default is “ prove it”, or can they do tricks when I’m really moving on them with force and intention?

I like this kind of attitude.

I had a "Taiji for health" fake MA teacher when I was 7. I also had a "drill 1 step 3 punches for 3 years" real MA teacher when I was 11. So, I knew a fake from a real.

When I was 14, the 1st year in my senior high, I joined in the high school Kung Fu class. During the 1st day, I ask my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" My long fist teacher said, "Come and punch me." I punched him. He blocked/grabbed/pulled my punching arm, blocked my leading leg, and took me down (搂臂迎门踢). As far as I know, in my long fist teacher's 30 years of teaching career, I was the only student who tried to test his MA skill.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He was speaking in general terms
It's a theory based on his experience and testing.
If you check his channel he has a lot of experience with different systems.

Ok I misunderstood. I didn't know he was speaking in general terms. I will definitely check his channel out to see what he shares.

How so ?
It's a video with limited time and scope...

You pointed out where that it was a general statement so much of what I stated probably won't apply. General statements leave a lot out, and most of the time so the perspective is busy. I read into it that he was saying that it was THE LIMITATION of the western method of driving power.

Should any have recommendations to help make his content better
for English speakers...let me know I can pass them on..

My only recommendation is to use a script. Say it his native language then translate for subtitles. Communications is that type of thing that if you leave too many gaps then people will naturally make assumptions and will view things from an inaccurate perspective.

My native language is English and I often ask AI to make my words easier to understand. Then, I read it to ensure it communicates my intended meaning. It's a longer process, but it greatly reduces the chance of being misunderstood.

I like the teacher and his approach making IMA more accessible, testing it,
trying to express it in modern language, aligning it with western based theories
when possible.

In terms of western theories about driving power that's going to vary. From fighter to fighter. I don't know if the boxers feel that the only way to punch is heel up. Even if they do believe that, it's always easy to find that same person punching with heels down or doing something differently from what they claim.

I thought she was just a natural, but maybe it's having a target to hit- she already gets body rotation behind her punches and drives her fist with the elbow behind it.

It's the target that helps create function for kids. Tell them to hit a target and you can watch them improve how they hit with each strike. Tell them to punch in the air and arms go everywhere. I think kids like to naturally hit things with their hands. As adults I think we should guide them to "productive ways" to hit instead of telling them not to hit. I've heard parents in the past tell a child "We don't hit."

This stupid stuff "hands are not for hitting" makes me want to hit the creator of this video lol.

When I was a kid. I was never told not to hit. I was always taught when not to hit and who not to hit.

This stuff is crazy to me.

 

[windwalker099]

if they beat me, I will train with them to learn what they know”.

Was never concerned with what other's knew.
Only with what I know or didn't know.

Long ago in the military I would continue testing Tibetan White Crane with many different stylist wanting to understand how it would compare to their own martial system..This was done through informal matches among other martial artists and others just wanting to test their boxing or grappling skills in an open format.

Never considered learning what they knew,
only in improving what I knew...

So I always tried to start those kinds of interactions with polite questions in case they were legitimate. Unfortunately, almost all of the ones that fail the smell test also fail to produce a measurable result. Most of those were doing the pretend Fa Jin thing. There are FAR more bull pucky peddlers in that arena. I have met exactly 3 people that impressed me, and maybe 50 that were straight up con men. My Sigung said at least 99% are phonies, I think it’s more. So, my default is “ prove it”, or can they do tricks when I’m really moving on them with force and intention? The answer is and has been almost always a “no”.

Feel it depends on what one is looking for....
In the military there were always those into MA who got together and trained.
Different styles, different levels , different focuses....

Wasn't about proving, more about the training.
We did some cool things like having 1 person walk around in a park, the others would ambush attacking at different points...
Or something very stupid like go into one the many bars, incite a fight with those drinking...
to see how things worked....

Young, dumb, grunt GI's, waiting for war, in the time of the cold war....

If you throw a simple "groin kick, face punch" combo at your opponent. If he can't deal with that, what does that mean?

To be able to throw that "simple groin kick, face punch combo"
you have to be able to do a couple of things first.

1. control the space,
2. enter the space,
3. close the gap,

Different styles, practitioners, depending on level, have very different strategies for controlling the space,, entering, and closing the gap.

In Tibetan white crane, there is saying..

"one could face a living tiger as though facing a dead tiger,
but one should treat a dead tiger as a live tiger "

Not so simple...

 

[Badhabits]

Ok I misunderstood. I didn't know he was speaking in general terms. I will definitely check his channel out to see what he shares.


You pointed out where that it was a general statement so much of what I stated probably won't apply. General statements leave a lot out, and most of the time so the perspective is busy. I read into it that he was saying that it was THE LIMITATION of the western method of driving power.


My only recommendation is to use a script. Say it his native language then translate for subtitles. Communications is that type of thing that if you leave too many gaps then people will naturally make assumptions and will view things from an inaccurate perspective.

My native language is English and I often ask AI to make my words easier to understand. Then, I read it to ensure it communicates my intended meaning. It's a longer process, but it greatly reduces the chance of being misunderstood.


In terms of western theories about driving power that's going to vary. From fighter to fighter. I don't know if the boxers feel that the only way to punch is heel up. Even if they do believe that, it's always easy to find that same person punching with heels down or doing something differently from what they claim.

It's the target that helps create function for kids. Tell them to hit a target and you can watch them improve how they hit with each strike. Tell them to punch in the air and arms go everywhere. I think kids like to naturally hit things with their hands. As adults I think we should guide them to "productive ways" to hit instead of telling them not to hit. I've heard parents in the past tell a child "We don't hit."

This stupid stuff "hands are not for hitting" makes me want to hit the creator of this video lol.

When I was a kid. I was never told not to hit. I was always taught when not to hit and who not to hit.

This stuff is crazy to me.

Agree 100%..... We don't want her to think it's not ok to defend herself if need be (social conditioning ). She just can't be running around beating on her classmates lol. I'll tell you what though, she keeps on this route, I'll pity the boy who tries to pressure her later on
And.....it's hard to tell a child hands aren't for hitting when they see you hitting stuff on a daily basis!

 

[windwalker099]

My only recommendation is to use a script. Say it his native language then translate for subtitles. Communications is that type of thing that if you leave too many gaps then people will naturally make assumptions and will view things from an inaccurate perspective.

thanks for the comment

A little bit more nuanced than that. His main target audience is in China. In China, there's a lot of introspection about their traditional arts, the modern ones evolving while at the same time trying to update the understanding of the traditional methods aligning them with modern training theories and usage..

For what is called IMA...

It's even more nuanced as the power method itself is the distinguishing method...
What one has to prove:

1. they actually use the power method they talk about.
2. If they can use it or not, is another point...

Not an issue if one can not get past the 1st point..

Language

Chinese syntax emphasizes context and relies heavily on particles and word order to convey meaning.
Even in word choice, it's not so easy....

thanks for the comment ...

He does this already,,,
those doing the translations are also from the same culture
not professional translators..Makes it a little hard.

For me, the word choice is a little different, having spent a
lot of yrs in China. maybe it's something I'm used to,
so don't notice it..

 

[JowGaWolf]

What proof do you or others offer besides their writing that they can do what they say they practice ?

Videos work.

Clips of others , using them to support , arguments, or theories posted ?

What’s different?

The approach is different.
I know how to do this technique with no problem. I can also tell you that the technique doesn't look like this in application and that waiting for that punch to come to do this technique is the worst thing to do. I can do it, and I have a student that I was coaching doing it as well.

This looks good until your opponent starts feinting punches which triggers the lifting of the arm too son resulting in the Jow Ga practitioner getting hit in the face. The approach that I use will almost guarantee that you won't get hit in the face when trying to lift your opponent's arm.

Same technique but different approach.

For those interested they can review his channel. There are clips of live training interactions.

Yep and that's what I'm looking for on his channel. He has tons of videos but I'm specifically looking for sparring ones so I cand see the approach that he uses.

 

[windwalker099]

This looks good until your opponent starts feinting punches which triggers the lifting of the arm too son resulting in the Jow Ga practitioner getting hit in the face. The approach that I use will almost guarantee that you won't get hit in the face when trying to lift your opponent's arm.

Tibetan, white cream / Lama Hop ga

Each very distinctive in use can be used pretty much as trained although some teachers do modify it for MMA and Sanda events.

Your horse and approach seems to be quite different then either the Hop gar, or Tibetan white crane..
The long arm you demo, reminds me a lot of someone I used to know who did Hung gar...

 

[JowGaWolf]

A little bit more nuanced than that. His main target audience is in China. In China, there's a lot of introspection about their traditional arts, the modern ones evolving while at the same time trying to update the understanding of the traditional methods aligning them with modern training theories and usage..

If they just use the Traditional arts, then they would be able to fix the issues without having to brainstorm or update. Especially if they train System A vs System B. Many of the failings that I've seen in the past weren't so much about the Traditional System as it was a lack of understanding of what the other systems were trying to do to the kung fu Practitioner.

"If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

Not knowing how Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai will try to wind the fight against you, and failing to not recognize that one does not know will lose every fight. BJJ followed this and learned how other fighters would try to beat them, from there they worked on ways to deal with these various approaches. BJJ didn't have to learn boxing, they only needed to know how Boxing would try to defeat BJJ and then prevent boxing from being able to execute their strategy for victory.

Unfortunately, Kung Fu is known for not knowing their opponent and not knowing themselves. If I train Jow Ga but my fighting does not look like Jow Ga then I should not base my victory on what Jow Ga can do when I cannot do Jow Ga kung fu.

This is Jow Ga Kung Fu. If I cannot do this in sparring or in a fight, then planning my winning strategy on this will increase my chance of losing.

This is BJJ's approach for victory against a striker. If I'm not aware of this, and if I'm not aware of my reality in being able to apply Jow Ga Kung Fu. Then I'm going to lose. This pretty much explains Kung Fu. Kung Fu fought System A vs System A and failed to factor in System B. The way I get rid of ants is not the same way I get rid of rats. But Kung Fu did it to themselves and only have themselves to blame. The good news is that it forced many schools to get back to function.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Tibetan, white cream / Lama Hop ga

Each very distinctive in use can be used pretty much as trained although some teachers do modify it for MMA and Sanda events.

Your horse and approach seems to be quite different then either the Hop gar, or Tibetan white crane..
The long arm you demo, reminds me a lot of someone I used to know who did Hung gar...

That makes my skin crawl because that only works against straight shots, hook that straight punch a little and he'll run into the punch he's trying to slip. My personal thought is that the master who knew how to fight using that technique left some key parts out of it. lol.

Jow Ga is a combination of these three systems: Hung Ga, Choy Ga, and Northern Shaolin.

I'm curious to know how my approach is different. At this point my approach is probably different than most Jow Ga Schools. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's probably heavily influenced by me using the techniques and trying to use them against other fighting systems. Most Jow Ga Students Fight like this.

This guy (the bald head one) is the only other person that I've seen use many of the recognizable techniques like the big wheel type punches and kung fu type upper cuts. He's has a lot of good videos of him using Jow Ga techniques.

Jow

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Clips of others , using them to support , arguments, or theories posted ?

What’s different?

When you can't find any online video that show what you try to explain, you just have to make your own video.

Some people may not like to show personal video online. The way I look at this is,100 years from today, we will not be on this planet. If our videos will still available online, our spirits will still live.

 

[windwalker099]

That makes my skin crawl because that only works against straight shots, hook that straight punch a little and he'll run into the punch he's trying to slip.

But he's not hooking the straight shot...is he ?
It's a demo of one possibility talking about combination's and movement.

You can post a comment in the video and let them know

When you can't find any online video that show what you try to explain, you just have to make your own video.

Both you and JowGaWolf
are quoting out of context

The context: a statement

​

statement

If comparing fighting styles, then include fighting clips not just theory and demoes.

question:

windwalker099 said:
Clips of others , using them to support , arguments, or theories posted ?

What’s different?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That makes my skin crawl because that only works against straight shots, hook that straight punch a little and he'll run into the punch he's trying to slip. My personal thought is that the master who knew how to fight using that technique left some key parts out of it. lol.

If you don't control your opponent's punching arm's elbow joint, his punch can change into an elbow strike.

If you straight punch at me, I'll block/deflect/press on your punching arm's elbow joint, that should be the standard CMA solution (this may not be the boxing solution).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's a demo of one possibility talking about combination's and movement.

Just because it's a demo, you can't show any "leaking".

If you enter through your opponent's

- side door, you need to push his leading arm (at the elbow joint) to jam his back arm.
- front door, you need to control both his leading arm and his back arm.

If you fail to do that, your entering strategy has a big hole.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Both you and JowGaWolf
are quoting out of context

I'm trying to say is when one is still alive, he should create as many online videos as he can.

 

[windwalker099]

Just because it's a demo, you can't show any "leaking".

don't quite get the point.

Whether I agree with them or not, see these as demonstrations with a point being made through the demonstration.
As with most demos, there is an agreed-upon action or movement being practiced to "demonstrate" an idea or concept.

In the case of the Hop Gar demo, a combination and positioning were shown. The point of posting it was to show what is practiced can be used as practiced, modified as needed for some of the points mentioned.

Do appreciate both you and JowGaWolf for posting your work..."videos "

A good way of expressing ones work....

best of luck in 2025

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

don't quite get the point.

Whether I agree with them or not, see these as demonstrations with a point being made through the demonstration.
As with most demos, there is an agreed-upon action or movement being practiced to "demonstrate" an idea or concept.

What's wrong with this video? When he dodges under his opponent's right arm, his opponent's right elbow can strike on his face (This is why I like silent video. You don't need any words to pass information).



If I move into your right side door and punch on your chest, your right elbow can strike on my head.

I may say the point being made is "I'm fast enough to move into your side door and punch your chest". But you can also say, "But my right elbow can hit your head before you can punch on my chest".

Who is right, and who is wrong? IMO, it's my fault that I didn't control your right elbow joint and let you to have opportunity to hit me.

Here is an example. It's an open guard-strike partner drill. My left hand controls my opponent's right arm to prevent his right punch.

In your opinion, my left hand control right arm is not needed since it's not part of the open guard-strike partner drill. To me, this part is necessary to guarantee the safety of my entering strategy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But he's not hooking the straight shot...is he ?
It's a demo of one possibility talking about combination's and movement.

You can post a comment in the video and let them know

Most people naturally hook the straight punch because they keep their elbows pointing outward. Those who can throw a straight punch without a hook in it are trained to punch with their elbows close to their body. This is especially true when the wild swinging starts.

This is why all fighting systems spend time teaching students how to throw a straight punch that doesn't have that curve in it.

Maybe I'm wrong.
Does anyone on Martial Talk throw punch like the guy in the white pants when they spar? Or maybe the better question when you spart System A vs System B. Does System B punch you like this? If not then the next question should be "Am I calibrating this technique to work against the punches that I'm going to get."

What would be the point of me leaving a comment? People will learn the hard way if they actually spar with the techniques that they train. If they aren't going to spar using that technique, then none of what he showed matters. It would be like telling a boxer how to do a kung fu technique. It doesn't matter because the boxer isn't goin to use the kung fu technique anyway.