What I see when I do my forms.

[JowGaWolf]

So I posted this video which takes the first few techniques in Sei Ping Kuen . The context of the video is the application of Jow Ga Kung. So the first thing I did was take the form and then show the movements to be discussion along with short tags of what I see the movements as.

This is Sei Ping Kuen

This is my video. Part of a Training Video I'm developing for beginners who don't know Jow Ga

I made the video to get viewers thinking and you should question what you see. Once the questions come up, then hopefully the exploration will come up. Eventually you'll start seeing where these simple movements show up. Not just in Jow Ga but in a lot of other systems. The picture below is to help that curiosity and exploration along. The hints are in the subtitiles. The picture on the right shows Muay Thai sending the fist past the head, hooking behind the head. The next frame is the fist returning to chamber with the head for a knee to the face. One of the things that I focus on when doing forms is the structure of the movement. The reason why is because I need the correct structure for the application and also because the same movement may be used in other things. Let me know what you think. Does what I show make sense to you are does it raise questions and doubts?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's your opinion about "stay in horse stance and doing multiple punches without moving the legs"? The reason I ask is because there is "elbow and knee coordination" issue. If my elbow is moving but my knee is not moving, I can't feel the energy that transfer from my heel all the way up to my fist.

In Gong Li Quan at 0.01 - 0.10, there is punch from horse stance. But it's just 1 punch and then switch into bow-arrow stance. You can see the elbow and knee coordination there - Elbow and knee start to move at the same time. Elbow and knee stop at the same time.

 

[isshinryuronin]

What's your opinion about "stay in horse stance and doing multiple punches without moving the legs"?

IMO this has a very limited, yet very important function - as a basic foundational exercise to develop hip and hand coordination for power generation and stability. I think this is vital for beginners. Once the student has a promotion or two this exercise can be greatly curtailed as at this point implementing these basics and movement become the main focus But, it's still good to occasionally revisit basics, even at higher belt levels.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

to develop hip and hand coordination for power generation and stability.

If you train this way, you can only feel that power come from your hip and then reach to your fist. You won't feel that power come from your foot and then reach to your fist.

In other words, your legs are not part of the power generation process. If power come from bottom -> up, your bottom should be your foot and should not be your hip.

This may make the beginner's training a bit easier. But the beginners won't get the full power generation picture.

 

[windwalker099]

What's your opinion about "stay in horse stance and doing multiple punches without moving the legs"?
In Gong Li Quan at 0.01 - 0.10, there is punch from horse stance. But it's just 1 punch and then switch into bow-arrow stance.

Nice set

are you referencing this movement ?

If my elbow is moving but my knee is not moving, I can't feel the energy that transfer from my heel all the way up to my fist.

Feel it depends on whether the movement is being driven by a specific force, as in a kinetic chain, or if the movements themselves are an expression of the body's central equilibrium, considered as a whole, represented as a point.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Feel it depends on whether the movement is being driven by a specific force,

The elbow and knee coordination are one of my favor subjects. So far, I have not heard many different opinions yet.

It's clear to see that this training can make a beginner to feel that power come from his foot and all the way up to his fist.

- Elbow bend and knee bend.
- Elbow straight and knee straight.

 

[windwalker099]

Let me know what you think. Does what I show make sense to you are does it raise questions and doubts?

thanks for showing your work
Understand what you'er trying to do, although do wonder about the speed shown...
i.e. is it too slow, losing the momentum that would normally be there... Or is it the way it's supposed to be ?

some observations..

Due to my own practice what I look for and notice are alignments...
What do you feel about your alignment in the bow step..

 

[windwalker099]

The elbow and knee coordination are one of my favor subjects. So far, I have not heard many different opinions yet.

It's clear to see that this training can make a beginner to feel that power come from his foot and all the way up to his fist.

- Elbow bend and knee bend.
- Elbow straight and knee straight.

Ones that you would agree with or just different?

Not the thread topic : In taiji the dynamics are not the same. i.e. different.

In Tibetan White Crane, we practiced something like what is shown in the gif,
using what was called a 45° horse.

It could be down stationary, twisting from side to side as shown in the clip.
Or as we used to practice with the foot work that went with it called
三角步進 (triangle in) / 三角步退 (triangle out)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ones that you would agree with or just different?

I would like to hear disagree opinions. Someone said he disagrees without explaining why. Why is what I'm interesting in.

IMO, there is only the right way and the wrong way. Different ways are just the "trade off". To understand the trade off is the center of this discussion.

A: Do you agree that elbow should coordinate with knee?
B: I don't think elbow needs to be coordinated with knee. This is my reason of why ...

 

[windwalker099]

I would like to hear disagree opinions. Someone said he disagrees without explaining why. Why is what I'm interesting in.

IMO, there is only the right way and the wrong way. Different ways are just the "trade off". To understand the trade off is the center of this discussion.

A: Do you agree that elbow should coordinate with knee?
B: I disagree! This is why ...

Missing the point.

The "right way" depends on theory used.

Different theories used, each having their own functionality.

Your premise seems to be there is only one way to do something.
ie "the right way"

really not the topic of the thread.
As to why...It has to do with kinetic chains vs 重心 Zhòngxīn center of gravity
how its used, and expressed according to theory followed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Your premise seems to be there is only one way to do something.
ie "the right way"

When you have different way, you still need to have a reason why. As long as your reason is logic, people can agree with your difference.

There are only 3 options here.

1. Elbow and knee coordinate is needed. My reason has been given.
2. Elbow and knee coordinate is not needed. What's your reason?
3. You don't care one way or another. What's your reason?

Is there a 4th option besides

1. truth,
2. false,
3. don't care？

 

[JowGaWolf]

What's your opinion about "stay in horse stance and doing multiple punches without moving the legs"?

For me it depends on what the focus of the training is. There's are real-world reasons why you want to be able to generate punching while stationary. Subway, bus close quarters. Fighting within a crowd will require stationary striking.

For me there are only a few things that I really focus on.
1. Punch Structure
2. Power generation using small movement.

But this would be skill development and not fight development. Mike Tyson uppercut highlight videos on youtube will show this type of stationary punching. Subway fights on youtube will show the same.

This is some of my stationary training on the bag. This is "almost straight leg" I'm focusing on how my single knuckle hits the bag and how I twist my waist and drive power without relying on my legs moving. The reason I'm not punching hard is because I'm trying to feel that connection of how the power is generating.

But this is only one way that I train. In terms of fighting, I don't think much time needs to be spent trying to spar in a stationary position. Once a person knows that feeling of power generation while standing then it can be applied on and off as needed in sparring. I continue to do it so I don't forget how it feels and to get stronger at doing it.

The reason I ask is because there is "elbow and knee coordination" issue. If my elbow is moving but my knee is not moving, I can't feel the energy that transfer from my heel all the way up to my fist.

This is different than what I describe. I don't think the legs should be perfect still. I think the legs should have movement as part of the energy transfer. The way that I train the movement of energy is to first train it big and exaggerated so I can feel how it's moving and once I have a good feeling for that, I try to shrink the movement as much as possible without losing the feel of how that energy is flowing.

Now with all of that said. I'm really big on footwork. Standing still has it's place but being coordinated enough to move is more important. This is why we see some of the "Kung Fu Masters" have trouble with the footwork. I've always trained mobility more than stationary punches.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There's are real-world reasons why you want to be able to generate punching while stationary. Subway, bus close quarters. Fighting within a crowd will require stationary striking.

Now we are talking about trade off (not right or wrong).

- Nothern CMA may expect a fight happen in open field.
- Southern CMA may expect a fight happen on a boat (there are more rivers in southern China).

Of course, when you fight on a boat, you need to concern your rooting first. The northern CMA has never considered this situation.

The 1st day that I trained the WC system, this concern bothered me big time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What's your opinion about "stay in horse stance and doing multiple punches without moving the legs"?

This is what it looks like when I start adding power. If you take a close look at my legs you can see that they move. This is because now I'm driving power from the bottom.

If you watch really close, in some cases you'll see my legs move slightly before my strike starts. This is the small movement that I often refer to even if someone is standing still.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Now we are talking about trade off (not right or wrong).

- Nothern CMA may expect a fight happen in open field.
- Southern CMA may expect a fight happen on a boat (there are more rivers in southern China).

Of course, when you fight on a boat, you need to concern your rooting first. The northern CMA has never considered this situation.

The 1st day that I trained the WC system, this concern bothered me big time.

I like to think of it more as an option. The more options you have available, the more likely you'll have a good outcome.
If I only fight in an open field, then I will do bad fighting in closed areas. The reason that I will do bad is because I didn't have an option in my approach. I only know fighting in field.

Fighting while standing and fighting on the ground is the same thing. What are my options? If my only option is to fight standing then I will be at a disadvantage if I'm on the ground wrestling. But if my options for fighting also include fighting on the ground then I'm better off.

Trade Off for me is more like. If I choose one, then I can't choose the other.

 

[JowGaWolf]

thanks for showing your work
Understand what you'er trying to do, although do wonder about the speed shown...
i.e. is it too slow, losing the momentum that would normally be there... Or is it the way it's supposed to be ?

It's supposed to be slow, so that beginners can see what is actually going on. If I did it faster than this then it's difficult to see and point out things like the turning of the wrist and other small but important things to point out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is the small movement that I often refer to even if someone is standing still.

Small movement is always part of the advance training. IMO, beginners need to start from large movement first.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Small movement is always part of the advance training. Beginners need to start from large movement first.

Agreed. But at this stage it's fine. I don't use the form to teach how to drive power. Form is used to practice driving power. Drills are used to build skill. Form is used to practice skill that you already know. Punching skill would need to come first. Basic Jab and Basic Straight punch, then Back Fist. These would normally be taught as application. But if the student knows Basic Jab and Basic Straight punch and Vertical Back Fist then we can jump straight to form. I taught a 5 year old once. She had to learn how to make a fist, how to punch before she could learn that part of the form.

One day a kid picked on her and she used her kung fu. She got in trouble with the school but her parents were proud because their daughter defended herself. Had I taught her form first then she wouldn't know how to punch.

 

[windwalker099]

What video editing soft ware did you use ?

 

[windwalker099]

Is there a 4th option besides

1. truth,
2. false,
3. don't care？

4. its not the topic