What good is sport martial arts?

[mastercole]

In other words, how do you teach street smarts?

Exactly. I learned and earned my street smarts years ago. But the more I am away from it, the weaker I get. It's like that scene in Apocalypse Now where Martin Sheen's character US Army Captain Willard is stressing out in that dingy hotel room in Saigon, doing kungfu and drinking Jack, on R&R waiting for a mission and he says:

Willard: [voiceover] Saigon... ****; I'm still only in Saigon... Every time I think I'm gonna wake up back in the jungle.

Willard: When I was home after my first tour, it was worse. I'd wake up and there'd be nothing. I hardly said a word to my wife, until I said "yes" to a divorce. When I was home after my first tour, it was worse. [grabs at flying insect]

Willard: When I was here, I wanted to be there; when I was there, all I could think of was getting back into the jungle. I'm here a week now... waiting for a mission... getting softer. Every minute I stay in this room, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger. Each time I looked around the walls moved in a little tighter.

If you really need self defense, I don't think you can find it doing kungfu in a hotel room in Saigon and more that Captain Willard did, nor in a martial arts school. I'm convinced you have to be in the bush to get stronger.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The opponents you encounter in class or in tournament do not equate to any individual you may run into in a self defense situation.

In tournament people are grouped by gender and size / weight. In a SD situation (my opinion) fools that start something are usually bigger and stronger, and they believe that you are an easy target. Basically, they're cowards - many are at least. They will usually start something with someone smaller than they are whom they believe they can easily take advantage of. Also, they will likely have backup - unless they are unusually confident of their abilities to overcome you.

These are legitimate considerations.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Elite WTF fighters have superior movement skills, there hands are exactly where they feel they need to be, good luck thinking you could run in and punch one of them.

Why is it that non-athletic recreational martial artist somehow feel their "experimental" training drills will somehow magically come through for them on the street, much more so than the martial arts athlete who trains 2 hours in the morning, 2 hours in the afternoon and 2 to 3 more hours in the evening 5 to 6 days a week, and competes under he threat of sever bodily injured (and even possible death). Like you said, you will fight how you train.

My point is that in any situation, the ATM, the 250 man attacking the skinny person, the sucker punch at the bar, the martial art athlete is always going to be in a better position to successfully fight and physically and mentally defeat their attacker, than say the non-athlete martial arts student. But that being said, I do not believe that any martial arts instructors, myself included can teach SD to anyone, training them as martial arts athletes just gives them a better chance in a SD situation.

Your comments indicate that you are operating entirely within a sport-model context. To begin with, 'running in' on your proposed WTF fighter, how will he do against multiple attackers? An attacker(s) that pull a weapon? In a very small, closed in environment? Inside his car? On the ground? When he's not stretched out and warmed up in street clothing?

He would be at a disadvantage because he's not trained for any of these situations.

I'm not sure what 'experimental training' you're referring to? Scenario based training is a staple of L.E., military and SD schools all over the world. It works well, which is why they continue to train this way. Many non-athletic practitioners are in as good a shape as their sport counter-parts. And though physical conditioning is important for a variety of reasons, a SD attack doesn't have rounds. The goal is to end the situation as quickly as possible and appropriate. According to the most recent data that we have from our training section, the average altercation lasts 7 seconds with injury usually occuring within the first 3 seconds. This is averaged from both on-duty as well as private citizen altercations i.e. domestics. Being able to go several rounds of several minutes each is nice, but not usually necessary from an SD perspective. We have to keep these things in perspective.

 

[terryl965]

**********DISCLAIMER*******DISCLAIMER********

**SCARCASIM***********SARCASIM**************

Nothing ever comes good out of sport TKD just like all sports only pansy do them. There is absolutely no value in playing a game when life and death is concern, because you know every single person encounter three four maybe even five of those a week. And for the record if they are not then they are all just wimps..

***NO BACK TO YOUR REGULAR SCHEDULE PROGRAM***

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Your comments indicate that you are operating entirely within a sport-model context. To begin with, 'running in' on your proposed WTF fighter, how will he do against multiple attackers? An attacker(s) that pull a weapon? In a very small, closed in environment? Inside his car? On the ground? When he's not stretched out and warmed up in street clothing?

He would be at a disadvantage because he's not trained for any of these situations.

Given what I have seen that passes for weapon defense in most schools, probably not at any greater disadvantage than anyone else.

As far as the other situations, the principles of fighting don't change all that much from one scenario to the next. Training for specific situations is certainly nice bonus, but ingraining the principles solidly allows for flexibility without having to be prepared for each specific situation. While I think that there are some common sorts of scenarios that should be trained for, and there are certainly some environment specific situations for which specialized training would be needed (LEO, military, etc.), for the most part, solid principles and good sense and habits should be more than enough for most people.

I'm not sure what 'experimental training' you're referring to? Scenario based training is a staple of L.E., military and SD schools all over the world. It works well, which is why they continue to train this way. Many non-athletic practitioners are in as good a shape as their sport counter-parts. And though physical conditioning is important for a variety of reasons, a SD attack doesn't have rounds. The goal is to end the situation as quickly as possible and appropriate. According to the most recent data that we have from our training section, the average altercation lasts 7 seconds with injury usually occuring within the first 3 seconds. This is averaged from both on-duty as well as private citizen altercations i.e. domestics. Being able to go several rounds of several minutes each is nice, but not usually necessary from an SD perspective. We have to keep these things in perspective.

The benefit of being able to go multiple rounds has benefits that go beyond just fighting multiple rounds. Endurance in general, for one, which is handy in escaping, the ability to maintain a cool head while under pressure for another. Most importantly, though, going multiple rounds trains you to see things through to the end, even if you feel like giving up.

So, yes the goal is to end it as quickly as possible, but at the same time, there are also benefits to competitive sparring, just as there are benefits to scenario based training.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Given what I have seen that passes for weapon defense in most schools, probably not at any greater disadvantage than anyone else.

I agree that many weapon defense programs are inefficent, overly complicated or even dangerous to attempt. However, there are some very good weapon defense programs that have a very high % rate of success. They could be an addition to most any art and in some cases even a stand alone system from an SD perspective.

As far as the other situations, the principles of fighting don't change all that much from one scenario to the next.

I'm going to 'somewhat' disagree with you. Although a punch in a mugging is the same as a punch during a date-rape attempt (given equal placement), other factors come into play as I've mentioned above. Given common situations, we can take a person through and familarize them with various aspects that can later be usable while under duress.

The benefit of being able to go multiple rounds has benefits that go beyond just fighting multiple rounds. Endurance in general, for one, which is handy in escaping, the ability to maintain a cool head while under pressure for another. Most importantly, though, going multiple rounds trains you to see things through to the end, even if you feel like giving up.

I do not disagree with you on this as I feel being physically fit is important. But a person training for SD can be just as fit as an athlete, even if the altercations isn't likely to last as long. As I've mentioned, we do things like Pyramids and other conditioning programs. For me, this is in addition to the power lifting and body building routines I do 3-5 times per week. So as far as physical fitness, yes I'm a big believer in it. And I impart that training mind set to my students.

They are very familar with Pyramids, hand stand push ups, dive bomber push ups etc

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree that many weapon defense programs are inefficent, overly complicated or even dangerous to attempt. However, there are some very good weapon defense programs that have a very high % rate of success. They could be an addition to most any art and in some cases even a stand alone system from an SD perspective.

Yes, there are some good weapon defenses. I question the 96% rate of success; where do you get your figure?

I'm going to 'somewhat' disagree with you. Although a punch in a mugging is the same as a punch during a date-rape attempt (given equal placement), other factors come into play as I've mentioned above. Given common situations, we can take a person through and familarize them with various aspects that can later be usable while under duress.

Yes, which is why I say that scenario based training is a nice bonus. But there are always other factors.

Which is why the principles are more important than learning a string of specifics; no matter how many you train for, there will always be more specifics that you haven't trained for.

The major benefit that I see to scenario based training is that it makes a good teaching tool for helping students to connect the principles with practical application, but I think that a few fairly general and common scenarios are enough for most people.

I do not disagree with you on this as I feel being physically fit is important. But a person training for SD can be just as fit as an athlete, even if the altercations isn't likely to last as long. As I've mentioned, we do things like Pyramids and other conditioning programs. For me, this is in addition to the power lifting and body building routines I do 3-5 times per week. So as far as physical fitness, yes I'm a big believer in it. And I impart that training mind set to my students.

They are very familar with Pyramids, hand stand push ups, dive bomber push ups etc

Conditioning is not specific to athletes and sparring for multiple rounds need not be confined to competitive sport.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yes, there are some good weapon defenses. I question the 96% rate of success; where do you get your figure?

I'm not sure where the 96% rate is coming from that you mentioned?

Which is why the principles are more important than learning a string of specifics; no matter how many you train for, there will always be more specifics that you haven't trained for.

The major benefit that I see to scenario based training is that it makes a good teaching tool for helping students to connect the principles with practical application, but I think that a few fairly general and common scenarios are enough for most people.

I agree with you completely about training principles. And to be clear, I'm not talking about a thousand different scenarios. But I like to include enough that cover 'typical' situations. And as many different, 'common' training environments as possible. First for the practicality, secondly because it makes training interesting as well as educational. I remember the first time I turned out the lights and had the class perform drills and forms in dim light conditions

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
The benefit of being able to go multiple rounds has benefits that go beyond just fighting multiple rounds. Endurance in general, for one, which is handy in escaping, the ability to maintain a cool head while under pressure for another. Most importantly, though, going multiple rounds trains you to see things through to the end, even if you feel like giving up.<<<

I do not disagree with you on this as I feel being physically fit is important. But a person training for SD can be just as fit as an athlete, even if the altercations isn't likely to last as long. As I've mentioned, we do things like Pyramids and other conditioning programs. For me, this is in addition to the power lifting and body building routines I do 3-5 times per week. So as far as physical fitness, yes I'm a big believer in it. And I impart that training mind set to my students.

They are very familar with Pyramids, hand stand push ups, dive bomber push ups etc

I don't think he is saying it's just the fitness that does it. It's the experience of fighting, it's the fighting part, round after round of unpredictable attacks, mental stress, physical adrenal stress, getting hurt and having the will power and tenacity to continue on until it's over, not giving up, you know the things that you can not get from jumping jacks, sit ups, push ups etc.

 

[mastercole]

Conditioning is not specific to athletes and sparring for multiple rounds need not be confined to competitive sport.Daniel

This is like stating that pink is black. You still refuse to accept the definition of an athlete, one you provided!

A person who starts regular physical exercise to condition them selves for possible SD scenarios, is an athlete as they are engaged in an athletic pursuit, according to the first point of definition of an athlete, as we saw earlier.

Likewise, if a person is engaged in "sparring" with a partner they are engaging in a competitive sporting activity, whether it be in a tournament, or in a basement or backyard dojo. They are by nature competing against another person!

Definition of Sparring: spar n. 1. sparring match, pugilism, fight, contest; see boxing, dispute, sport

 

[mastercole]

ath·lete (at&#824;h&#8242;l&#275;t&#8242. noun 1. a person trained in exercises, games, or contests requiring physical strength, skill, stamina, speed, etc.

ath·lete (&#259;th&#712;l&#275;t&#716. noun 2. A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.

In both definitions, the first point of definition is for the person who trains in physical exercises.

Both definitions 2nd points of definition go on to explain the term "athlete" could also be for sport, games, contest or competitions, but as we see, not exclusive to those activities as it can be a term for a person who just exercises

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is like stating that pink is black. You still refuse to accept the definition of an athlete, one you provided!

A person who starts regular physical exercise to condition them selves for possible SD scenarios, is an athlete as they are engaged in an athletic pursuit, according to the first point of definition of an athlete, as we saw earlier.

Likewise, if a person is engaged in "sparring" with a partner they are engaging in a competitive sporting activity, whether it be in a tournament, or in a basement or backyard dojo. They are by nature competing against another person!

Definition of Sparring: spar n. 1. sparring match, pugilism, fight, contest; see boxing, dispute, sport

ath·lete (at&#824;h&#8242;l&#275;t&#8242. noun 1. a person trained in exercises, games, or contests requiring physical strength, skill, stamina, speed, etc.

ath·lete (&#259;th&#712;l&#275;t&#716. noun 2. A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.

In both definitions, the first point of definition is for the person who trains in physical exercises.

Both definitions 2nd points of definition go on to explain the term "athlete" could also be for sport, games, contest or competitions, but as we see, not exclusive to those activities as it can be a term for a person who just exercises

It is not a question of acceptance but of communicating with others. I am aware of the general definition, but I am also aware of the fact that, rightly or wrongly, most people in MA draw a distinction between a "Martial artists" and an athlete. That distinction being one who trains for "the art" and one who trains for competition.

Believe me, there is a myriad of terminology that I would love to see changed, beginning with martial artist, but there comes a point where I need to decide whether or not I wish to communicate effectively with the people on the board.

Using athlete in the most general sense of the word does nothing more than confuse the conversation.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm not sure where the 96% rate is coming from that you mentioned?

It comes from responding late at night and seeing % as 96. Sorry about that.

I agree with you completely about training principles. And to be clear, I'm not talking about a thousand different scenarios. But I like to include enough that cover 'typical' situations. And as many different, 'common' training environments as possible. First for the practicality, secondly because it makes training interesting as well as educational. I remember the first time I turned out the lights and had the class perform drills and forms in dim light conditions

Nothing wrong with any of that, and I am certainly not saying that you shouldn't do it. Only that those sorts of things are a nice bonus.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't think he is saying it's just the fitness that does it. It's the experience of fighting, it's the fighting part, round after round of unpredictable attacks, mental stress, physical adrenal stress, getting hurt and having the will power and tenacity to continue on until it's over, not giving up, you know the things that you can not get from jumping jacks, sit ups, push ups etc.

That is exactly what I am saying.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't think he is saying it's just the fitness that does it. It's the experience of fighting, it's the fighting part, round after round of unpredictable attacks, mental stress, physical adrenal stress, getting hurt and having the will power and tenacity to continue on until it's over, not giving up, you know the things that you can not get from jumping jacks, sit ups, push ups etc.

I've highlighted some parts of your quote that I feel are incorrect. Here's why;

unpredictable attacks - what's so unpredictable? The opponent is either going to throw a punch or a kick. Unless where now grappling in TKD matches? Or pulling weapons? Or having a few buddies jump in to help? Or throwing something? Or grabbing for an improvised weapon?

physical adrenal stress - I'm sure there is a bit of stress with all those people watching you. That can in no way be compared to the stress and duress of fighting for your life.

getting hurt - Well it isn't likely that they'll get much more than a bloody nose. Oh, a serious injury could occur. But they aren't going to get cut with an edged weapon, shot, or hit with a baseball bat now are they?

will power and tenacity to continue on until it's over - Till what is over? A match that lasts a few minutes? Not exactly on par with fighting for your life, particularly if your injured.

Jumping jacks? - Would not know, I don't do jumping jacks. I do a super 8 pyramid.

 

[mastercole]

It is not a question of acceptance but of communicating with others. I am aware of the general definition, but I am also aware of the fact that, rightly or wrongly, most people in MA draw a distinction between a "Martial artists" and an athlete. That distinction being one who trains for "the art" and one who trains for competition.

Believe me, there is a myriad of terminology that I would love to see changed, beginning with martial artist, but there comes a point where I need to decide whether or not I wish to communicate effectively with the people on the board.

Using athlete in the most general sense of the word does nothing more than confuse the conversation.

Daniel

I don't think most people in MA draw a distinction between a martial artist and a martial artist athlete. I believe that such thinking has a small cult following and is a tiny minority of practitioners. During my interactions with folks locally, statewide, nationally and internationally, I rarely run across such thinking. When I do run across it, it's usually folks that don't get out much and keep to their tiny circle of like-minded associates.

Just because something (possibly erroneous) is accepted by a group does not mean we should go along with it. Why go along with the crowd when the crowd is wrong?

 

[dancingalone]

I don't think most people in MA draw a distinction between a martial artist and a martial artist athlete. I believe that such thinking has a small cult following and is a tiny minority of practitioners. During my interactions with folks locally, statewide, nationally and internationally, I rarely run across such thinking. When I do run across it, it's usually folks that don't get out much and keep to their tiny circle of like-minded associates.

Just because something (possibly erroneous) is accepted by a group does not mean we should go along with it. Why go along with the crowd when the crowd is wrong?

I disagree and I actually believe you to be in the minority when trying to use the terms martial artist and athlete as synonymous and interchangeable ones.

The fact that individuals can fit both categories does not mean that they are the same thing. Far from it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've highlighted some parts of your quote that I feel are incorrect. Here's why;

unpredictable attacks - what's so unpredictable? The opponent is either going to throw a punch or a kick. Unless where now grappling in TKD matches? Or pulling weapons? Or having a few buddies jump in to help? Or throwing something? Or grabbing for an improvised weapon?

Pretty sure that by unpredicatble, he means unscripted. Thus, while you may be aware of the range of attacks permitted, your opponent can use them at random as he or she sees fit, perform fake outs, feints, etc.

physical adrenal stress - I'm sure there is a bit of stress with all those people watching you. That can in no way be compared to the stress and duress of fighting for your life.

Nor can anything that goes on in a school environment.

getting hurt - Well it isn't likely that they'll get much more than a bloody nose. Oh, a serious injury could occur. But they aren't going to get cut with an edged weapon, shot, or hit with a baseball bat now are they?

This will not occur in a school environment either unless you really are cutting with a sharp implement, shooting real bullets, or hitting your students with a wood or aluminum baseball bat. Or maybe waterboarding your students.

will power and tenacity to continue on until it's over - Till what is over? A match that lasts a few minutes? Not exactly on par with fighting for your life, particularly if your injured.

Closest you will get to fighting for your life in a structured and safe environment is some kind of sparring. There are only but so many ways to train this. Sparring/competitive fighting/whatever you wish to call it, depending on the art, is the most reliable way to do this.

Jumping jacks? - Would not know, I don't do jumping jacks. I do a super 8 pyramid.

Love pyramid exercises.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't think most people in MA draw a distinction between a martial artist and a martial artist athlete. I believe that such thinking has a small cult following and is a tiny minority of practitioners. During my interactions with folks locally, statewide, nationally and internationally, I rarely run across such thinking. When I do run across it, it's usually folks that don't get out much and keep to their tiny circle of like-minded associates.

Very possible. Generally, it is not an issue for me when I am not on the internet. On many boards, however, the distinction is definitely made by what seems to be a large percentage of people, particularly in the TKD section.

Just because something (possibly erroneous) is accepted by a group does not mean we should go along with it. Why go along with the crowd when the crowd is wrong?

Not a question of going along with it, but one of choosing my battles. If I am going to use a term in a way that is distinct from the way that the rest of the board is using it, I just make sure to clarify how I am using the term first.

Daniel

 

[mastercole]

I've highlighted some parts of your quote that I feel are incorrect. Here's why;

unpredictable attacks - what's so unpredictable? The opponent is either going to throw a punch or a kick. Unless where now grappling in TKD matches? Or pulling weapons? Or having a few buddies jump in to help? Or throwing something? Or grabbing for an improvised weapon?

I was talking about sparring as training, not for a tournament, you can include grappling, bitting, kicking, punching whatever as long is it is all out, but you don't go all out, you go safe. Again, all the stuff you do is predictable, meaning, the student knows they are going to come out of the scenarios, whatever happens, OK. Otherwise, no one would stay or come back.

physical adrenal stress - I'm sure there is a bit of stress with all those people watching you.

I guess if you have stage fright it would stress you to have folks looking at you?

That can in no way be compared to the stress and duress of fighting for your life.

Having a good fighter move in on you and blast your ribs and head so hard your teeth jar and you see white flashes will ramp the stress up to those levels very similar to fighting for your life, as a matter of fact, in case you have not experienced much of that type of sparring yourself, it shuts most people down where everything goes out the window and they begin to freeze. The the fighter can easily come in for the final knockout, of course, that is where it might be wise to stop and discuss what just happened and what to do to get past the freezing up part, adding some SD value to sparring

getting hurt - Well it isn't likely that they'll get much more than a bloody nose. Oh, a serious injury could occur. But they aren't going to get cut with an edged weapon, shot, or hit with a baseball bat now are they?

If they don't have experience rolling with strikes and develop real tenacity from that, they never get past the freezing up part as soon as anything goes down. That is why scenarios fail.

will power and tenacity to continue on until it's over - Till what is over? A match that lasts a few minutes? Not exactly on par with fighting for your life, particularly if your injured.

Acting out scenarios is not fighting for your life. Actually it's not fighting at all. Sparring is fighting. I recommend fighting match after match, 3 minute rounds, over and over for several hours, against elite fighters, not just some local trophy hunter, that will give you a good starting point for developing tenacity/will power and learning not to freeze up, of give up.

Jumping jacks? - Would not know, I don't do jumping jacks. I do a super 8 pyramid.

I eat wheaties (healthy) and play bocce ball (for exercise) too, but it don't help my SD.