What good is sport martial arts?

[Daniel Sullivan]

OK, how do you train your students for SD then?

Lets hear how you train yours in class first.

Daniel

 

[mastercole]

The opponents you encounter in class or in tournament do not equate to any individual you may run into in a self defense situation.

In tournament people are grouped by gender and size / weight. In a SD situation (my opinion) fools that start something are usually bigger and stronger, and they believe that you are an easy target. Basically, they're cowards - many are at least. They will usually start something with someone smaller than they are whom they believe they can easily take advantage of. Also, they will likely have backup - unless they are unusually confident of their abilities to overcome you.

Big 250 pound men will attack 100 pound women. You can do that in sparring, but to drill that way in a class situation would be difficult.. unless you have a red man suit.

In a robbery situation an individual may brandish a gun and stand at a distance. Or they may flash a knife to intimidate you. OR there will be more than one of them.

Many years ago my Uncle was robbed at an ATM by a man with a gun. My Uncle tossed his wallet to the man and tried to run away, but the robber shot him in the head. Fortunately my Uncle survived and was (generally) fine afterward.

I'm not really clear on how you could have "no rules" in a class room situation. At tournament "no rules" would turn into a blood bath. But in a real SD situation "no rules" - rules. That's the way of it.

Also, there is the issue of experience level. In a class or a tournament, you are dealing with trained martial artists. On the street this may not be so. And while we all may believe that a martial artist has the advantage over someone not trained - and mostly I believe we do - there still is the risk of the unexpected.

Further, many times you don't see the first blow coming. Back when I was in High School I was leaving class one day, and as I walked out through the class room door into the main hall, someone hauled off and hit me. It was hard enough to drive me back into the class room. I quickly shook it off and launched myself through the door again.. but found just a jumble of people - so I had no idea who hit me.

A friend of mine was standing at a bar one night and got hit with a beer mug. No provocation, no warning. It dazed him, but he was able to move to avoid his attacker until his head cleared enough for him to put the other guy down and out.

So I really don't understand how you can really say that your training matches a real world street situation. Unless that is... you take your students to bars and get people to start fights with them.

My point is that in any situation, the ATM, the 250 man attacking the skinny person, the sucker punch at the bar, the martial art athlete is always going to be in a better position to successfully fight and physically and mentally defeat their attacker, than say the non-athlete martial arts student. But that being said, I do not believe that any martial arts instructors, myself included can teach SD to anyone, training them as martial arts athletes just gives them a better chance in a SD situation.

 

[tinker1]

My point is that in any situation, the ATM, the 250 man attacking the skinny person, the sucker punch at the bar, the martial art athlete is always going to be in a better position to successfully fight and physically and mentally defeat their attacker, than say the non-athlete martial arts student. But that being said, I do not believe that any martial arts instructors, myself included can teach SD to anyone, training them as martial arts athletes just gives them a better chance in a SD situation.

I agree completely.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Except that this analogy presupposes that REALLY defending yourself requires that the person you are training with is REALLY trying to knock you out.

Sure it does, if they are just tapping you, it's all fun and games, no threat.

So tell me, is full contact sparring the only training tool that you use? And do you do so with zero protective gear and only allow a limited set of targets and attacks?

If you do not train that way, then your statements are a tad hypocritical.

Violent criminals attacking you are not going for the knock out. They're going for the kill.

You never know what a violent criminal is thinking. You can assume they will probably harm you, in some way or another, and that falls into the category of a REAL physical threat, unlike walking into a room or putting groceries in your trunk scenarios and having your non-threatening classmates grab your arm and keys on a snowy day.

I'll grant you that. My point was that KO is generally not the goal in a violent attack.

This is why two man dueling does not equate to realistic self defense either, even if your partner is trying to knock you out. Daniel

Let's see, mugger attacks man in McDonald's parking lot. Man fights back. Well, here we have a two man duel don't we?

No, we don't. You apparently are unfamiliar with what a duel is.

I'd place my money on the martial arts athlete, who is use to real stress in the fight, over the scenario trained martial arts enthusiast in this one..........

Not without more information. Is the mugger armed? Is he a hardened criminal who has done hard time? Is the athlete from suburbia and the mugger from Compton? Most importantly, is the mugger armed?

Daniel

 

[mastercole]

Lets hear how you train yours in class first.

Daniel

You can avoid my question, it's certainly your right

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If your students don't have someone really trying to take them out, which is what it sounds like to me, then it's unrealistic.

I really don't know why is sounds that way to you? I don't really think you've fully grasped everything I've tried to communicate with you. No disrespect intended. From what you've indicated of your free sparring, from a SD perspective, it is very unrealistic because it doesn't seem to take into account the considerations I've listed in this (and other threads). I'm sure it is great sport training, and nothing wrong with that. But it isn't SD as it is extremely limited in its considerations, again, as I've listed above.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Master Cole,

Just so that we're comparing apples to apples (or to see if we're comparing apples to oranges), do you teach from a sport or SD perspective? Do you consider it both at the same time? Tell me of a typical free sparring session.

Thank you.

 

[tinker1]

Since you 2 are having a lover's spat (LOL - just kidding), I'll offer my POV on SD training.

Typically MA students are already in great physical condition. They are probably also used to / able to withstand a hard shot (take a punch and come back).

So my view then is that SD training is more about the mind than the body. They are already tough physically, now I only need to train them to handle the unexpected.

For example, in TKD sparring we typically don't encounter grabbing, or someone giving us a bum's rush and a tackle. These are outside the scope of "normal" TKD training. So I work on training the mind.

We go over how various joints on the body bend - where there is pain - how to inflict pain and how to release yourself from someone else grabbing you. I teach dirty fighting. "Monkey steals the peach", "eye of the Sphinx", neck wrenches, the "shark bite", eye gouging, ear popping, groin ripping, knee breaking.. all that.

Most important I try and teach my students to SEE what's available. If I just teach technique after technique without thought to confusion and chaos of street SD, then I am doing my students a disservice. I want my students to SEE their opponents vulnerabilities and be able to take advantage of them. I want them to develop SD intelligence, and to play dirty and cheat their way out of a nasty situation, then quickly leave the scene.

 

[mastercole]

So tell me, is full contact sparring the only training tool that you use? And do you do so with zero protective gear and only allow a limited set of targets and attacks?

I'm going answer questions posed to me, unlike you. Everything our fighters do is centered around full contact training methods. Do your fighters train in full contact methods?

If you do not train that way, then your statements are a tad hypocritical.

My fighters train with the standard WTF gear during full contact encounters.

I'll grant you that. My point was that KO is generally not the goal in a violent attack.

Now you are changing your story, but that cool, I understand. I have a question for you. Are you qualified to teach self defense?

No, we don't. You apparently are unfamiliar with what a duel is.

I am familiar with both of these definitions.

Duel [doo-uhl, dyoo-]

1. a prearranged combat between two persons, fought with deadly weapons according to an accepted code of procedure, especially to settle a private quarrel.

2.any contest between two persons or parties.

What is your point?

Not without more information. Is the mugger armed?

An armed mugger gives the recreational martial arts enthusiast some kind of advantage over the martial arts athlete? hummmm.

Is he a hardened criminal who has done hard time?

Again, is the part time recreational martial artist in a better position (than the martial art athlete) to deal with the hardened criminal from cell block 6?

Is the athlete from suburbia and the mugger from Compton? Most importantly, is the mugger armed? Daniel

LOL. OK, a mugger from Compton should worry more about the part time recreational martial arts enthusiast than the martial arts athlete knockout specialist... I don't think so.

 

[mastercole]

I really don't know why is sounds that way to you? I don't really think you've fully grasped everything I've tried to communicate with you. No disrespect intended. From what you've indicated of your free sparring, from a SD perspective, it is very unrealistic because it doesn't seem to take into account the considerations I've listed in this (and other threads). I'm sure it is great sport training, and nothing wrong with that. But it isn't SD as it is extremely limited in its considerations, again, as I've listed above.

I fully grasp it. Those points you listed above are nothing new. I've been on the receiving end and the teaching end of all that, and I can tell you it's fluff, all the unpredictable scenarios, two people coming at you, fake knives and foam bats, etc. Until a person has had to fight under serious brutal conditions, they have no clue how they will react when someone really tries to hurt them.

What you or anyone won't do it set up a situation where a person has free range to knockout the defender during an attack. Why? You can't, you would you get sued and everyone would quit the course, in horror.

What you are not grasping is the whole learning to deal with full force blows thing.

 

[mastercole]

Master Cole,

Just so that we're comparing apples to apples (or to see if we're comparing apples to oranges), do you teach from a sport or SD perspective? Do you consider it both at the same time? Tell me of a typical free sparring session.

Thank you.

Here is the deal. I feel that no martial arts instructor can teach SD, not you, not me. The only way to really learn self defense is to live day after day in a situation and culture where you have to defend yourself. It has nothing to do with martial arts, at all. This is my personal experience.

My point is, that a martial arts athlete has the physical and psychological advantage in a SD situation, over that of the martial artist enthusiast that is not an athlete. Neither of them has "learned" SD, but one has the advantage over the other.

 

[jks9199]

Hey, folks... we all have different ways of training. Let's try to discuss them with some courtesy rather than venom, OK?

 

[Balrog]

If you are involved in martial arts competitions, what do you see as far as the;

• Positive aspects of competition?
• Negative aspects of competition?
• What are the tangible rewards of winning a competition i.e. trophy, medal, money etc?
• What is the starting age for competitions you are in or have seen?
• Are the competitions you participate in expensive or economical?
• What type of competition do you participate in i.e. full contact, point etc?

Thank you.

1. Increased confidence. Improved reaction time.
2. The rabid, Little League mentality of the parents of the junior competitors. Far, far too much emphasis on XMA and its dance routine ilk.
3. Tangible? You get a trophy/medal/ribbon/whatever.
4. Much too young. I personally wouldn't start junior competition until around age 8 or so.
5. I think they are reasonablly priced. It's usually the travel that get expensive.
6. Point

 

[dancingalone]

Here is the deal. I feel that no martial arts instructor can teach SD, not you, not me. The only way to really learn self defense is to live day after day in a situation and culture where you have to defend yourself. It has nothing to do with martial arts, at all. This is my personal experience.

My point is, that a martial arts athlete has the physical and psychological advantage in a SD situation, over that of the martial artist enthusiast that is not an athlete. Neither of them has "learned" SD, but one has the advantage over the other.

You don't see the mental inconsistency in what you've written? You are arguing that SD is only learned in some daily survival of the fittest environment, like a Lord of the Flies setting. Yet then you also add on that a MA athlete has an advantage... Only where exactly does a MA athlete supposedly develops his advantage? From his training I would think, unless we believe they sprout up from dragon's teeth sown in the ground.

So, you are in fact arguing that your training methodology gives some value for SD... Unfortunately you don't give the same courtesy to people who train using other methodology, even though they are specifically addressing common SD scenarios such as mugging and knife attacks. Instead, you play athleticism as a final card, thinking that it trumps everything else and also mistakenly assuming that others don't train as hard as your own in group.

Rather fallacious thinking, I'm afraid.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm going answer questions posed to me, unlike you.

Didn't avoid. I asked you to share first. I will happily answer your question in another post, however.

Everything our fighters do is centered around full contact training methods. Do your fighters train in full contact methods?

My fighters train with the standard WTF gear during full contact encounters.

Do they also train according to WTF tournament rules? If yes, then do they also train under any additional set of conditions? Regarding my fighters, I will answer that in a separate post.

Now you are changing your story, but that cool, I understand. I have a question for you. Are you qualified to teach self defense?

I'm qualified to teach hapkido. Whether or not you consider that a 'yes' is up to you.

I am familiar with both of these definitions.

Duel [doo-uhl, dyoo-]

1. a prearranged combat between two persons, fought with deadly weapons according to an accepted code of procedure, especially to settle a private quarrel.

2.any contest between two persons or parties.

What is your point?

Okay, for clarification then, when I say 'two man dueling', definition one is the one to which I refer. While the term may be applied colloquially to general contests, when dueling is specifically discussed, particularly when being compared to a violent attack, it is definition one that is operative.

An armed mugger gives the recreational martial arts enthusiast some kind of advantage over the martial arts athlete? hummmm.

What are you responding to? I never brought up recreational martial artists nor have I compared them in any way to competitive athletes, elite or otherwise.

Again, is the part time recreational martial artist in a better position (than the martial art athlete) to deal with the hardened criminal from cell block 6?

Again, what are you responding to?

LOL. OK, a mugger from Compton should worry more about the part time recreational martial arts enthusiast than the martial arts athlete knockout specialist... I don't think so.

Okay, lets establish what subject we're discussing. What do recreational martial arts enthusiasts have to do with this? I thought that we were talking about the athlete vs. the mugger.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I fully grasp it. Those points you listed above are nothing new. I've been on the receiving end and the teaching end of all that, and I can tell you it's fluff, all the unpredictable scenarios, two people coming at you, fake knives and foam bats, etc. Until a person has had to fight under serious brutal conditions, they have no clue how they will react when someone really tries to hurt them.

What you or anyone won't do it set up a situation where a person has free range to knockout the defender during an attack. Why? You can't, you would you get sued and everyone would quit the course, in horror.

What you are not grasping is the whole learning to deal with full force blows thing.

Again, I can't fathom why you would assume such a thing in regards to SD training, particularly how I've describe it? Certainly not from my description of SD training. I think you have a pre-conceived idea that is coloring your viewpoint.

I sounds like you and your students 'free spar' by starting about 6 feet apart and then trying to hit and/or kick each other hard. That's fine in and of itself, but it isn't true SD when considering the full range of responses. I've asked you a few times how you 'free spar'. Your avoiding a response so my above conclusion is based upon your overall general comments.

Assuming I was 'free sparring' you or one of your students. Would you have an issue if;

• I got in close and used an elbow to the jaw or temple?
• Pulled an edged weapon?
• Grabbed for an improvised weapon such as a chair or other blunt object?
• Swept their legs?
• Threw them into something hard like the wall?
• Popped them in the brachial plexus and then put them in a joint lock?
• Had a couple of my buddies jump in?
• Took them to the ground?
• Instead of 'sparring' in the Dojang, could I ask them to go out into the parking lot between some cars or in the back alley or the closest stairs?
• Could I ask them to start on their side on the ground wedged in the corner of the room?
• Could I turn out most or all of the lights?
• Could I throw some water in the middle of the floor and then have them start in the wet spot?
• Could I throw some loose change in their eyes (while wearing appropriate eye wear of course)?
• Could I do any of the above in combination and without warning?

And yes, someone with experience can very effectively teach SD. If someone doesn't think so, well with the greatest amount of respect, I'll simply ask that they don't put their own limitations on me.

 

[mastercole]

You don't see the mental inconsistency in what you've written? You are arguing that SD is only learned in some daily survival of the fittest environment, like a Lord of the Flies setting.

Lord of the Flies? I think that is a fantasy movie, the settings I am referring to are real. As an example, you can find them in just about any urban ghetto.

Yet then you also add on that a MA athlete has an advantage... Only where exactly does a MA athlete supposedly develops his advantage? From his training I would think, unless we believe they sprout up from dragon's teeth sown in the ground.

Yes, from hard, full contact based training, not theatrical pretend scenarios.

So, you are in fact arguing that your training methodology gives some value for SD...

It gives an advantage over the enthusiast participant, any "likely" SD value is "likely" small.

Unfortunately you don't give the same courtesy to people who train using other methodology, even though they are specifically addressing common SD scenarios such as mugging and knife attacks.

I'd rather have the reality discussion. "Oh that's nice, how cool, sweet, etc", is not what we are doing here, I thought we were talking about our view of self defense? I think most of us are being courteous, and we are all big boys I assume? I mean, I don't feel a single person has to agree with anything I write, and I'm not insulted, so let's just stick with facts and opinions.

Instead, you play athleticism as a final card, thinking that it trumps everything else and also mistakenly assuming that others don't train as hard as your own in group. Rather fallacious thinking, I'm afraid.

My own personal experience tells me that martial arts athletes, train longer hours and harder and thus have superior skills as compared to the SD/recreational/enthusiast general martial artist. I don't see that as fallacious at all, how could you? I see it as fact

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You can avoid my question, it's certainly your right

As I said, I was not avoiding answering; I simply asked you to answer first.

You really didn't. You responded with this:

Everything our fighters do is centered around full contact training methods. Do your fighters train in full contact methods?

My fighters train with the standard WTF gear during full contact encounters.

Which is fine, though it really doesn't describe training methodology.

As for my own methodology,

In hapkido:
I start students off with basic strikes and blocks, footwork drills, stance work, and some basic hoshinsul. Beginning hoshinsul includes escapes from and counters to same side wrist grabs, how to perform a basic wristlock, arm bar, leg sweep, hip toss, and over the back throw. I focus a lot on unballancing the opponent. In addition, students learn to roll and fall. Strikes are either performed in the air or against focus targets and bags.

As students advance, they learn more advanced strikes, escapes and counters to different grabs and holds, both standing and seated, more advanced footwork drills, and more challenging rolling and falling.

I make it a point to connect what they are doing with the sorts of encounters that they are likely to have; anything from school bullies to drunks at the bar, and to the kind of unarmed attacks an attacker is likely to use.

I employ five step, three step, and one step drills, and free sparring after the students have gained a measure of control.

In kumdo:
My student learn the eight basic cuts. They do a lot of repetitions of basic strikes and blocks, footwork drills, posture and stance drills, and distance drills. They practice hyeong using a mokdo and sparring drills using the jukdo.

Do your fighters train in full contact methods?

In hapkido, I don't call them fighters because we do not 'fight' competitively. Students begin free sparring with light contact. Once they have demonstrated control and are comfortable, students practice full contact. We use WTF taekwondo style protective gear.

The hapkido association that I am in does not have HKD tournaments, but after many years of taekwondo, I feel that a full contact element is necessary. We essentially use WTF TKD rules with allowances for kicks to the outer thigh and outter calf, sweeps, takedowns, and some joint locks. Yes, there is a possibility of a KO in our full contact sparring.

Kumdo/kendo sparring is full contact. Student usually don't start actual sparring for about eight months to a year (around 6th geub/green belt usually). We both spar and fight under FIK rules.

Daniel

 

[mastercole]

Didn't avoid. I asked you to share first. I will happily answer your question in another post, however.


Do they also train according to WTF tournament rules? If yes, then do they also train under any additional set of conditions? Regarding my fighters, I will answer that in a separate post.


I'm qualified to teach hapkido. Whether or not you consider that a 'yes' is up to you.


Okay, for clarification then, when I say 'two man dueling', definition one is the one to which I refer. While the term may be applied colloquially to general contests, when dueling is specifically discussed, particularly when being compared to a violent attack, it is definition one that is operative.


What are you responding to? I never brought up recreational martial artists nor have I compared them in any way to competitive athletes, elite or otherwise.


Again, what are you responding to?


Okay, lets establish what subject we're discussing. What do recreational martial arts enthusiasts have to do with this? I thought that we were talking about the athlete vs. the mugger.

Daniel

It's simple, I was responding to you. Here is what you wrote, and my responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
Not without more information. Is the mugger armed?<<

An armed mugger gives the recreational martial arts enthusiast some kind of advantage over the martial arts athlete? hummmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
Is he a hardened criminal who has done hard time?<<<

Again, is the part time recreational martial artist in a better position (than the martial art athlete) to deal with the hardened criminal from cell block 6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
Is the athlete from suburbia and the mugger from Compton? Most importantly, is the mugger armed? Daniel<<<

LOL. OK, a mugger from Compton should worry more about the part time recreational martial arts enthusiast than the martial arts athlete knockout specialist... I don't think so.

You still have not answered my questions, but I do understand.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It's simple, I was responding to you. Here is what you wrote, and my responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
Not without more information. Is the mugger armed?<<

An armed mugger gives the recreational martial arts enthusiast some kind of advantage over the martial arts athlete? hummmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
Is he a hardened criminal who has done hard time?<<<

Again, is the part time recreational martial artist in a better position (than the martial art athlete) to deal with the hardened criminal from cell block 6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
Is the athlete from suburbia and the mugger from Compton? Most importantly, is the mugger armed? Daniel<<<

LOL. OK, a mugger from Compton should worry more about the part time recreational martial arts enthusiast than the martial arts athlete knockout specialist... I don't think so.

Again, what does a recreational martial arts enthusiast have to do with the scenario?

I thought you were asking me to choose between the mugger and the athlete. You said you'd put money on the athlete. I said I'd need more info and provided some of the questions that I would have with regards to predicting the outcome of the encounter. Again, when did a recreational MA enthusiast enter the picture and when did we start comparing competitive athletes to recreational MA enthusiasts?

If I have either misread your scenario or if you were asking something else, please clarify.

You still have not answered my questions, but I do understand.

Methinks we were composing our posts at the same time.

See my last post. If any of your questions are still unanswered, specify which ones and I will endeavor to answer them.

Daniel