what does your dojang teach?

[oftheherd1]

Grappling does exist within Tae Kwon Do, even if it isn't taught much.

My master does not operate under the belief that he should only teach TKD. Although Sumo is a bit of a stretch (its more a game at the end of kids class than something actually taught) but we learn techniques from a variety of arts. The majority (especially of tested material) is TKD.

There are grappling techniques in some of the forms. They are often lost to modern teachers, and said to be there for the 'art' of martial arts.

my dojang does teach hapkido though self defense systems but yeah I never hear of sumo been teach in taekwondo.

Many schools seem to enjoy teaching things from other arts. I'm not sure that is a bad thing, making a student more rounded. Knowledge is always good. It might be more appropriate for a teacher to mention he was teaching something that wasn't strictly the basic art, but nonetheless, valuable.

Maybe it was actually ssireum (Korean folk wrestling)?

Pax,

Chris

It looks a lot like Sumo, but is different. Okinawans used to have a specific form of wrestling similar to Sumo as well. Practitioners I have seen in those forms usually aren't as heavy.

Sumo? Grappling? In a tkd class?

As I mentioned above, grappling is in some of the forms. I can't recall which forms or what the moves were, but I taught a 4th Dan TKD student. Every once in a while I would teach a technique and he would mention that was in a form, show it, and state he always wondered why that was in the form when it seemed to have no practical value. Usually, it was just a shadow of the technique, but it was recognizable and seemed to have no value in the form.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I don't teach any certain orgs system. ITF forms, class grounded in traditional ways, no fancy tournament or stunt team stuff. Mix in some pressure points, throws and joint locks depending on who is teaching. I love diving into a form and decoding movements. It is where most of the grappling/throwing is hidden.

 

[Michael89]

I don't teach any certain orgs system. ITF forms, class grounded in traditional ways, no fancy tournament or stunt team stuff. Mix in some pressure points, throws and joint locks depending on who is teaching. I love diving into a form and decoding movements. It is where most of the grappling/throwing is hidden.

thats real cool. i should become 2nd dan black belt before this year is over so I will get to learn ITF forms.

 

[Balrog]

is it good? I'm sorry I heard alot bad stories about ATA.

Sorry in taking so long to respond - life has a tendency to interfere at times.

I will simply point out that most of the things you hear about ATA come from
1) People who know nothing about the ATA and are simply parroting things they hear from others.
2) The others say those things because they are either jealous of ATA's successful business model, or they couldn't hack ATA's training and washed out.

Is ATA perfect? Of course not. It is successful for a reason - we teach solid martial arts in a solid business environment. But we are like any other large organization of people; you can map us on a bell curve and there will always be some folks under the left side of the curve. And they tend to be the ones who pee in the pool for the rest of us. You'll find those kind of folks in any organization.

As far as my school? Well, I have said repeatedly that I might not be the best instructor in the world, but I most assuredly have the best students in the world. Now, I might be just a little biased, you understand, but I think it's justified.

 

[RyanGarry]

My Dojang is also under the Kukkiwon and WTF banners, though we are not within a Union, Our club is part of its own association called Eire Tekwondo, 'Eire' being the Irish word for Ireland for anyone who might be confused haha We are thought very traditional taekwondo compared to other clubs over here, we learn the 8 and 17 basic movements along with the 8 taeguk poomsaes and Koryo-Ilyo from 1st Dan onwards.
We are also linked with the World Taekwonmudo academy and Mudo style from Kim Chungdokwan created by Grandmaster Kim Yong Ho from South Korea who was Chairman of the Technical Committee of the WTF from 1998-2001, he is a very inspiring and wise Grandmaster, for anyone who has had the pleasure of meeting him, you would agree I'm sure Anyway, just thought I'd share what my Dojang teaches

 

[msmitht]

1. I have been to Korea and know several masters who have grown up there, in modern times, and they all say the same: no grappling in tkd. These are men and women who have done tkd since they were 5 in Korea who are between 25-35 years old.
2. Just because someone says it is a part of tkd poomsae/hyung does not mean that it is. It is more likely that this is their own idea about what the move could mean. Good way to keep students from seeking out a true grappling school.

 

[MAist25]

^^^ I am not saying I believe there are grappling techniques hidden in the poomsae, because I'm quite positive that their aren't. They were not created with any grappling techniques in mind. However, to say there is no grappling in TKD is just purely wrong. And just because a person is Korean does not immediately make them more knowledgeable about Taekwondo than somebody else. Also, just because you've been training in an art for 20 years does not immediately make you knowledgeable about your art. Some people train for 20 years in the same dojang. If that particular dojang does not teach grappling, then sure, that person is going to say that grappling is not taught in TKD. However, if you go on the kukkiwon website right now you will see several grappling techniques clearly displayed in the techniques section.

 

[msmitht]

^^^ I am not saying I believe there are grappling techniques hidden in the poomsae, because I'm quite positive that their aren't. They were not created with any grappling techniques in mind. However, to say there is no grappling in TKD is just purely wrong. And just because a person is Korean does not immediately make them more knowledgeable about Taekwondo than somebody else. Also, just because you've been training in an art for 20 years does not immediately make you knowledgeable about your art. Some people train for 20 years in the same dojang. If that particular dojang does not teach grappling, then sure, that person is going to say that grappling is not taught in TKD. However, if you go on the kukkiwon website right now you will see several grappling techniques clearly displayed in the techniques section.

Wow. The instructors I was referring to graduated from Yong In university. They specifically went there for tkd and when they graduated they were sent to the USA on a internship at a friends school. I think they know tkd better than most.
I have trained at many schools. I've done ITF, kkw, tsd(mdk) and bjj. In pure tkd there is no grappling.
Now if you are referring to a hip toss or kneeling one steps or choke defense that is different, but is still not grappling in the modern sense.
Example: tkd defense against a rear choke is the same as in judo and bjj-trap the arm, pulling it away from your throat towards your chest. Then make a base and hip throw(ippon seoi nage). The difference is in the follow up and overall strategy. A grappler will go down with you and keep you there(or just arm bar you). A tkd student will punch you then back off so to remain on their feet.

 

[skribs]

Now if you are referring to a hip toss or kneeling one steps or choke defense that is different, but is still not grappling in the modern sense.
Example: tkd defense against a rear choke is the same as in judo and bjj-trap the arm, pulling it away from your throat towards your chest. Then make a base and hip throw(ippon seoi nage). The difference is in the follow up and overall strategy. A grappler will go down with you and keep you there(or just arm bar you). A tkd student will punch you then back off so to remain on their feet.

This is grappling. Just because some techniques don't finish the same way doesn't make it any less so. In our class we've learned various finishers, from just punching and walking away, to axe kicks, to standing over the opponent and breaking the arm against the knee, to going down and doing an arm bar or rear naked choke. It's clear that the different methods would be better in different circumstances (i.e. defending against a group, fighting a single opponent, police officer subduing a suspect).

Yes, there is no competitive grappling.
Yes, the focus is on striking.
Yes, many of the grappling techniques are self defense techniques that try to end with the TKDer standing.

But there is grappling.

 

[MAist25]

Wow. The instructors I was referring to graduated from Yong In university. They specifically went there for tkd and when they graduated they were sent to the USA on a internship at a friends school. I think they know tkd better than most.
I have trained at many schools. I've done ITF, kkw, tsd(mdk) and bjj. In pure tkd there is no grappling.
Now if you are referring to a hip toss or kneeling one steps or choke defense that is different, but is still not grappling in the modern sense.
Example: tkd defense against a rear choke is the same as in judo and bjj-trap the arm, pulling it away from your throat towards your chest. Then make a base and hip throw(ippon seoi nage). The difference is in the follow up and overall strategy. A grappler will go down with you and keep you there(or just arm bar you). A tkd student will punch you then back off so to remain on their feet.

You and I have different definitions of grappling. And that is impressive that the instructors you are referring to went to Yong In. The instructor I am referring to is Grandmaster Richard Chun, one of the first men who brought Taekwondo to the United States and one of the most well-respected grandmasters still alive today.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Wow. The instructors I was referring to graduated from Yong In university. They specifically went there for tkd and when they graduated they were sent to the USA on a internship at a friends school. I think they know tkd better than most.
I have trained at many schools. I've done ITF, kkw, tsd(mdk) and bjj. In pure tkd there is no grappling.
Now if you are referring to a hip toss or kneeling one steps or choke defense that is different, but is still not grappling in the modern sense.
Example: tkd defense against a rear choke is the same as in judo and bjj-trap the arm, pulling it away from your throat towards your chest. Then make a base and hip throw(ippon seoi nage). The difference is in the follow up and overall strategy. A grappler will go down with you and keep you there(or just arm bar you). A tkd student will punch you then back off so to remain on their feet.

That's grappling...
The idea that grappling refers only to ground fighting is incorrect.



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[msmitht]

You and I have different definitions of grappling. And that is impressive that the instructors you are referring to went to Yong In. The instructor I am referring to is Grandmaster Richard Chun, one of the first men who brought Taekwondo to the United States and one of the most well-respected grandmasters still alive today.

I've done bjj for about 13-14 years now. I completely understand the difference. We can throw out names of instructors, mine came here 1965 and taught chuck seriff, but it does not change the fact that Take kwon do emphasizes stand up fighting with feet and hands at medium to long range.
Grappling, be it judo/wrestling/bjj, has a very different strategy. They want to get close, take you down and apply strikes and submissions while maintaining a dominant position (for reference watch the first 5 UFC's).
Does your instructor have you practice full power/speed throws while oppent is resistant and attempting the same? Do you allow for full randori or "free training", either with or without a GI? Have you been taught the hierarchy of ground grappling positions?
Or do you do a self defense move/one step/choreographed routine with minimal resistance? I'm not poking fun. I want to know. When I learned hapkido I thought I knew grappling. Then i trained in judo and finally bjj. The difference lies in the overall strategy of the art. That is why I say that there is no grappling in tkd.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've done bjj for about 13-14 years now. I completely understand the difference. We can throw out names of instructors, mine came here 1965 and taught chuck seriff, but it does not change the fact that Take kwon do emphasizes stand up fighting with feet and hands at medium to long range.

There is a vast difference between this and your original (false) claim that there is no grappling in TKD.

Grappling, be it judo/wrestling/bjj, has a very different strategy. They want to get close, take you down and apply strikes and submissions while maintaining a dominant position (for reference watch the first 5 UFC's).
Does your instructor have you practice full power/speed throws while oppent is resistant and attempting the same? Do you allow for full randori or "free training", either with or without a GI? Have you been taught the hierarchy of ground grappling positions?
Or do you do a self defense move/one step/choreographed routine with minimal resistance? I'm not poking fun. I want to know. When I learned hapkido I thought I knew grappling. Then i trained in judo and finally bjj. The difference lies in the overall strategy of the art. That is why I say that there is no grappling in tkd.

Perhaps you'd like to take a look at the definition of grappling because your insistence that it applies only to ground fighting is just plain incorrect.

 

[MAist25]

I've done bjj for about 13-14 years now. I completely understand the difference. We can throw out names of instructors, mine came here 1965 and taught chuck seriff, but it does not change the fact that Take kwon do emphasizes stand up fighting with feet and hands at medium to long range.
Grappling, be it judo/wrestling/bjj, has a very different strategy. They want to get close, take you down and apply strikes and submissions while maintaining a dominant position (for reference watch the first 5 UFC's).
Does your instructor have you practice full power/speed throws while oppent is resistant and attempting the same? Do you allow for full randori or "free training", either with or without a GI? Have you been taught the hierarchy of ground grappling positions?
Or do you do a self defense move/one step/choreographed routine with minimal resistance? I'm not poking fun. I want to know. When I learned hapkido I thought I knew grappling. Then i trained in judo and finally bjj. The difference lies in the overall strategy of the art. That is why I say that there is no grappling in tkd.

Its amazing that you've been practicing BJJ for 14 years and you don't know what the difference between grappling and ground fighting is... and I used to train in judo, so I know what it is like to throw and be thrown (mostly be thrown). But yea, my TKD dojang did allow throws in sparring, and yes we did train with and without gi's. Just because the grappling strategy of a BJJ guy is different than the grappling strategy of a TKD guy does not mean we do not have grappling...

 

[msmitht]

Its amazing that you've been practicing BJJ for 14 years and you don't know what the difference between grappling and ground fighting is... and I used to train in judo, so I know what it is like to throw and be thrown (mostly be thrown). But yea, my TKD dojang did allow throws in sparring, and yes we did train with and without gi's. Just because the grappling strategy of a BJJ guy is different than the grappling strategy of a TKD guy does not mean we do not have grappling...

Well guess what? That is not Taekwondo as it is done in Korea or any kukkiwon style school I've been in. Those that have a grappling class call it judo, bjj or whatever GRAPPLING Style it is(unless the instructor is a liar) Taekwondo is not a grappling style of martial art. In modern competition Taekwondo(the Olympic style) it is nonexistent.

 

[msmitht]

There is a vast difference between this and your original (false) claim that there is no grappling in TKD.



Perhaps you'd like to take a look at the definition of grappling because your insistence that it applies only to ground fighting is just plain incorrect.

I was referring to a grappling system that teaches EFFECTIVE grappling and ground fighting.

 

[MAist25]

Well guess what? That is not Taekwondo as it is done in Korea or any kukkiwon style school I've been in. Those that have a grappling class call it judo, bjj or whatever GRAPPLING Style it is(unless the instructor is a liar) Taekwondo is not a grappling style of martial art. In modern competition Taekwondo(the Olympic style) it is nonexistent.

Well considering my school was a Kukkiwon style school, I guess I've just shown you that you're wrong. Just because Taekwondo is not predominantly a grappling art does not mean it does not contain elements of grappling. This is not an opinion, its a fact. And Olympic Taekwondo discludes about 90% of taekwondo techniques, so that's not really a relevant point...

I was referring to a grappling system that teaches EFFECTIVE grappling and ground fighting.

Again, Taekwondo DOES teach EFFECTIVE grappling, and even ground fighting. The only difference is that a BJJ guy likes being on the floor, a TKD guy doesn't. We can take guys to the ground, but do not want to be down there with them. If we do find ourselves on the ground, everything we do while there is in the effort to get back to our feet. Once again, much different strategy than a BJJ guy, but grappling and ground fighting nonetheless

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well guess what? That is not Taekwondo as it is done in Korea or any kukkiwon style school I've been in. Those that have a grappling class call it judo, bjj or whatever GRAPPLING Style it is(unless the instructor is a liar) Taekwondo is not a grappling style of martial art. In modern competition Taekwondo(the Olympic style) it is nonexistent.

The Kukkiwon and taekwondo are not synonymous. If you've been told that they are, you've been lied to.
And of course, the SPORT of taekwondo is only a fraction of what the ART teaches.



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[Dirty Dog]

I was referring to a grappling system that teaches EFFECTIVE grappling and ground fighting.

I use my grappling skills far too often in the ER. They're quite effective. Perhaps the problem isn't just one of definitions, but poor training?


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[skribs]

The difference lies in the overall strategy of the art. That is why I say that there is no grappling in tkd.

The strategies of Taekwondo and Boxing are vastly different. Does that mean that one of them is not a striking art?

The grappling in TKD is different from that of Judo/Jujitsu, yes. It is different from Hapkido, and Hapkido is different from Judo and Jujitsu as well. That doesn't mean that only one of them is grappling and the others are not. They are different pieces to different puzzles.

The teacher and student are more important than the art, IMHO. I have a better understanding of grappling now in my TKD school than I did doing wrestling, because I've grown in my ability to learn since I did wrestling. Should I say that TKD has better grappling than wrestling? No.

Does the olympic sport allow grappling? No.
Does the basic KKW test require grappling? No.
Does that mean that a school affiliated with KKW that teaches WTF sparring can't teach grappling? No.