What does Martial Arts simplicity mean to you?

[Thunder Foot]

As practitioners of JKD, we hear the terms allot but never really take time to discuss it, "to simply be simple." Simple, direct, economical, non telegraphic, non classical... What does simplicity mean to you and how has that had an impact on your development as a Martial Artist?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What does Martial Arts simplicity mean to you?

To let your opponent's head to meet your fist/ground. You need to develop some good knock/take down skills, some "door guarding" moves in your life time.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As practitioners of JKD, we hear the terms allot but never really take time to discuss it, "to simply be simple." Simple, direct, economical, non telegraphic, non classical... What does simplicity mean to you and how has that had an impact on your development as a Martial Artist?

I agree with most of that, just not the non-classical bit. Xingyiquan is simple, direct, economical, non telegraphic and has a lot more in common with JKD than any side of that discussion is willing to admit

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes I have to agree as well but like Xue disagree with the non-classical bit.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

As practitioners of JKD, we hear the terms allot but never really take time to discuss it, "to simply be simple." Simple, direct, economical, non telegraphic, non classical... What does simplicity mean to you and how has that had an impact on your development as a Martial Artist?

Only my opinion - but, to me 'simplicity' means don't over think it...I find the more I over think a technique the more likely I am to telegraph..but the more I focus on action and reaction and responding to my Instructor's commands - my techniques are smoother and more powerful..

 

[wingchun100]

For me, "to simply be simple" means not to engage in learning a lot of "flowery" techniques that wouldn't work for on the street. As for what those techniques are, opinions vary. I mean, in my case I am a small guy...I like to stay rooted to the ground...therefore to me kicking any higher than the shin is too high for me (because I fear being easily tossed around or knocked off balance). Notice I did NOT say that high kicks are useless completely...just that I don't favor them. As we learn martial arts, we all discover that we have a way of fighting that works best for us. So learning anything other than that would not keep with the "simply be simple" mentality.

 

[drop bear]

Simple is a really tricky concept. If it was simple then a really good fighter would not be able to do a simple move better. Yet a person can study for twenty years to have a simple move performed right. Which does not really fit the definition of simple any more.

 

[Thunder Foot]

I agree with most of that, just not the non-classical bit. Xingyiquan is simple, direct, economical, non telegraphic and has a lot more in common with JKD than any side of that discussion is willing to admit

Non-classical is a direct quote from Bruce Lee, that's not an interpretation by me.
And while I understand your disagreement, my interpretation of the Non-classical description is to be adaptive and possess the qualities of formless form, which Lee also spoke about. While whatyou say may be true to an extent in Xingyi, just as Wing Chun shares the same traits... there is still further cutting away that can be done to make them more so as it's evident in Bruce's progression of Wing Chun.

 

[wingchun100]

What I have never understood about Bruce's "classical" quote is that he shows his wing chun way of punching (vertical fist) versus the way some others styles train (punching from the hip with the palm up, then flipping the hand over when you get to full extension). However, in the wing chun tradition, that IS the "classical" way of punching.

 

[Thunder Foot]

That's true, but that's only one way present in the forms. At the end of SLT, there is also punching without the rotation. Also when people start from mon sau, it's characteristic to simply straight punch.
Ip Man also doesn't have hands at his hips in his forms. I mean we are talking about small slight differences, but they make a world of difference.

 

[wingchun100]

I never said Ip Man DID have hands on hips. In fact I have seen no wing chun lineage that does that. Hands starting at hips is present in lots of other styles, but not wing chun. We have a very high chamber, up near the arm pits. And in fact, in wing chun forms you don't punch straight from chamber either: you slide your fist into the center line first and THEN punch.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Oh maybe I mis understood your post. I thought you were saying the rotation is the tradition way to WC punch.

 

[wingchun100]

Oh maybe I mis understood your post. I thought you were saying the rotation is the tradition way to WC punch.

No problem. It happens.

 

[MartialMellow]

I Googled Bruce Lee's quote. It appears that the non classical quote involves adapting to the situation. Being a beginner, who has self defense as one of my goals, performing martial arts on account of what it is as another goal, I will be studying the classical forms for a long time.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Non-classical is a direct quote from Bruce Lee, that's not an interpretation by me.
And while I understand your disagreement, my interpretation of the Non-classical description is to be adaptive and possess the qualities of formless form, which Lee also spoke about. While what you say may be true to an extent in Xingyi, just as Wing Chun shares the same traits... there is still further cutting away that can be done to make them more so as it's evident in Bruce's progression of Wing Chun.

Simply to simplify....

Xingyi is fairly direct and compared to other CMA styles it is much easier to understand and apply...but I am not going to argue this point.. I still maintain that I agree with you except for the classical bits.

I have a slightly different take on some of the things Lee said because I am more on the classical side of this but then I do not think my view would align with many on the classical side of this either...particularly his classical mess quote....which I came to when I was training a bit of JKD and Xingyi.

there is still further cutting away that can be done to make them more so as it's evident in Bruce's progression of Wing Chun.

There are those who would not call it a progression.... I simply call it a change much like Jujutsu to Judo or Aikido

 

[drop bear]

Simply to simplify....

Xingyi is fairly direct and compared to other CMA styles it is much easier to understand and apply...but I am not going to argue this point.. I still maintain that I agree with you except for the classical bits.

I have a slightly different take on some of the things Lee said because I am more on the classical side of this but then I do not think my view would align with many on the classical side of this either...particularly his classical mess quote....which I came to when I was training a bit of JKD and Xingyi.



There are those who would not call it a progression.... I simply call it a change much like Jujutsu to Judo or Aikido

Efficiency not simplicity. Taking steps out. Taking straight paths to targets. Using body mechanics to your advantage. Taking advantage of position. It is not simple because the other guy is trying to deny those things and the game becomes complicated.

Like checkers I guess.

 

[tshadowchaser]

simplicity equals not thinking ahead but reacting at the moment.
The quickest, least complicated, most direct response.
at least that what it means to me

 

[Xue Sheng]

Efficiency not simplicity. Taking steps out. Taking straight paths to targets. Using body mechanics to your advantage. Taking advantage of position. It is not simple because the other guy is trying to deny those things and the game becomes complicated.

Like checkers I guess.

Efficiency vs simplicity...we cold be getting into symantics.....to simplify does not necessarily mean simple..... could mean the removal of the extraneous in order to become more efficient

 

[drop bear]

Efficiency vs simplicity...we cold be getting into symantics.....to simplify does not necessarily mean simple..... could mean the removal of the extraneous in order to become more efficient

Yeah but important semantics as I think simplicity gives the wrong idea. And actually puts your training in the wrong direction a bit.

Like whichever post it was about not thinking ahead. Where you can be efficient but still lay traps for the guy.

 

[Thunder Foot]

.... could mean the removal of the extraneous in order to become more efficient

indirectly paraphrasing Lee here lol, that's exactly what he said it means... "stripping away the inessentials". And in that same phrase he infers to the progression away from classical or stylized form. Now where I personally elaborate on this is in terms of application and passing on the legacy. In my practice of CMA, I've come to learn that not all Chinese culture is as definitive as Western culture is accustomed to from language to martial art. As a result, classical form is passed down with each generation sharing their own interpretations toward application... meanwhile the formalized structure remains as intact as possible. This is what I interpret as Bruce's term "formless form", one stylized "optimal" form that can assume all forms in application, thus becoming formless.

[Edit]: in regards to the "classical mess", I believe Bruce was speaking of those who refuse to progress past the limitations of a stylized-crystalline form. In example, a person who only possesses one way of doing a tech, our may be limited to only the few learned from classical style.