Gyakuto
Senior Master
If only there was one iota of evidence for the existence of the spirit itād be easier to believe. But alas, there is none.
What do you consider spiritual?
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Prince_Alarming
Black Belt
Then again, if we had proof, then what merit would there be in having faith?
Gyakuto
Senior Master
There is no merit in having faith; the belief in the absence of evidence
Tooth fairy? Father Christmas? Thor?
Prince_Alarming
Black Belt
*Shrug* Be like that
Gyakuto
Senior Master
Yes, I will continue leading a life of rationality.
Funny thing is; I agree with you. I also hope one day you see proof before you pass.
Gyakuto
Senior Master
But what would that proof constitute? What could possibly persuade a material rationalist like me? Any ideas?
Prince_Alarming
Black Belt
Could be any number of things, but for most of us it's an answer to a prayer. Something that you really want or need that you actually get after asking the almighty for it. Some kind of synchronicity. It could also be one of those huge damascene conversions when something flips in your mind and you're like 'you know what? There's actually a god'. Still others feel a profound connection with something they read or hear from the bible. Let us know if anything happens...
Gyakuto
Senior Master
Prayer? A petition to a deity to temporarily suspend the laws of nature, from someone, admittedly, unworthy? Well that rarely happens beyond chance.
I donāt think most would agree that a deity provides material things in response to prayer otherwise Iādāve won the lottery every week and have the cheque delivered by Keira Knightley and Gillian Anderson. Iāve prayed really hard for that to happen.
Yes but what could that be that couldnāt be easily explained away by insanity/deep fake CGI?
Oh no! That book is too full of inconsistencies. I mean the desperate attempts how that person was descended from David via Joseph who wasnāt even his biological father!
Have you seen Theology graduate, Alex Connor on Youtube?Iāll be dead so how can I?
Prince_Alarming
Black Belt
....fine...
windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
Is believing different from "knowing"
Your post reflects a western approach described in a book called
THE TAO OF PHYSICS
"In the West, the intuitive, religious type of knowledge is often devalued in favor of rational, scientific knowledge, whereas the traditional Eastern attitude is in general just the opposite. "
windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
Fishing baskets are employed to catch fish; but when the fish are got, the men forget the baskets; snares are employed to catch hares; but when the hares are got, men forget the snares.
Words are employed to convey ideas; but when the ideas are grasped, men forget the words.*
In the West, the semanticist Alfred Korzybski made exactly the same point with his powerful slogan,
āThe map is not the territory.ā
What the Eastern mystics are concerned with is a direct experience of reality which transcends not only intellectual thinking but also sensory perception. In the words of the Upanishads,
What is soundless, touchless, formless, imperishable, Likewise tasteless, constant, odorless,
Without beginning, without end, higher than the great, stable- By discerning That, one is liberated from the mouth of death.
Knowledge which comes from such an experience is called āabsolute knowledgeā
by Buddhists because it does not rely on the discriminations, abstractions and classifications of the intellect which, as we have seen, are always relative and approximate.
It is, so we are told by Buddhists, the direct experience of undifferentiated, undivided, indeterminate āsuchnessā.
Complete apprehension of this suchness is not only the core of Eastern mysticism, but is the central characteristic of all mystical experience. The Eastern mystics repeatedly insist on the fact that the ultimate reality can never be an object of reasoning or of demonstrable knowledge.
It can never be adequately described by words, because it lies beyond the realms of the senses and of the intellect from which our words and concepts are derived."
_Simon_
Senior Master
If you are genuine in understanding the place of spirituality, it's clear that the scientific method/logic (with its insistence on objective "proof") aren't really appropriate, as it's a whole other paradigm and context of understanding. Like @windwalker099 alludes to it can't be grasped through things like logic, causality or evidence-based logic as that methodology inherently falls short as it seeks to artificially separate objects in a Newtonian paradigm of causality.
That being said, belief also falls short, as it's another mechanism of the mind trying to contain the whole through a conceptual understanding or idea. I'm sure in your Zen explorations this would have come up.
So it doesn't mean blind faith in terms of belief, but in a genuine surrender of the old way of understanding, that to me is faith.
You're most likely more drawn to Eastern practices (Zen, Buddhism) which is very much focused on direct experience and that which is immanent within. Western religion simply approaches it from the other angle which can be just as powerful if you're inclined (a focus on the Transcendental, surrender, devotion to that which is higher than the little me-idea). They both actually reach the same place when you understand the mechanisms of each. One brings you through direct observation of the mind and its proclivities and is pathway of the mind, letting go conceptual thinkingness, and the pathway of the Heart, realising the limitations of relative knowledge, surrenders your self-concept in favour of devotion to That which knows (also acts of love and service are emphasised as they chip away at the egoic focus).
So all in all, there's zero anyone can do to "prove" it really haha, because anything can be disputed, and it depends upon the contextual paradigm that one is viewing life and knowledge/wisdom from.
If interested, Dr. David Hawkins really was a teacher that helped me bridge that gap between science and spirituality (his first book Power vs. Force explores all this in depth):
And this just cause I thought you may like it
Fungus
Black Belt
I'd say the difference is one of probabilitiy. "knowledge" is usually the term used when you have high confidence in somthing, although 100% confidence is always an idealization, even in science. "beliving" is something that has a substantially lower confidence level.
That say I think the bigger difference is also between rational vs irrational belieif.
Rational beliefs can be anything from extremely confidently corroborated scientific knowledge, to a hunch based on emotions, but emotions are not irrational, it's one evolved way to handle information that may be important but that isn't fully processed.
Irrational belief OTOH, is when you can barely argue for your beliefs, only mumbo jumbo with no coherent logic, not even vaguely so. An emotion may appear rational in comparasion.
Fungus
Black Belt
Gods helmet? but you need to turn up frequency and power some orders of magnitue. This will induce delusions that will persuade you.
I certainly can't produce anything of the sort or say anything to change your thinking. Maybe nothing short of a personal divine presentation will change your mind. I'm waiting to see one.
I never saw a UFO either.
Prince_Alarming
Black Belt
I mean, I'm not judging gyakuto, I want to make that clear. How could I? I used to be an atheist myself, but I was treated with love and respect which I scarcely deserved by Christians and I ended up by sharing their faith. Best decision I ever made.
Gyakuto
Senior Master
I was meaning what evidence would God, in her infinite wisdom, present to me, a skeptic, to shift my rational materialism? Something that I couldnāt rationally explain away with deep fake CGI/induced hallucinations?
Iāve never seen a UFO either (or rather an unidentified anomalous phenomeno -UAP- as theyāre now referred) and looking at the scant evidence for their alien origin, Iām as sceptical of their existence too. But until āContact Dayā comes (please, please, please let it be the Vulcans) and we can begin questioning our visitors, analysing and dissecting them (
), will I believe in the alien origin of UAPs. By the way, this forum will require another section on which to post entitled āSuus Mahnaā. 
Gyakuto
Senior Master
Only your God can do that by all accounts.
But if you had been in India/Afghanistan/Japan and received that love and respect from Hindus/Muslims/ShintÅists , you would now be a Hindu/Muslim/Animist.
Most of us donāt believe in Thor, Wotan, Apollo, Zeus, Alusi Orisha etc. We are atheist (or at least agnostic) about them for many reasons. In the spirit of that reasoning (see what I did there?) Iāve just gone a step further and removed Yahweh from my list
Prince_Alarming
Black Belt
Perfectly true
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