What do the Traditionalists think?
- Thread starter Shogun
- Start date
BushidoUK
Yellow Belt
I actually teach a freestyle system of karate.
It is a blend of a Shotokan based freestyle karate and Zankido Ryu Ju Jutsu, my instructor being Dan graded in both.
We train in both traditional katas and freestyle katas.
We train not for competitions (most freestyle clubs seem to emphasise the competing aspect) but for karate's sake (if that makes sense)
We also are train in weapons as well.
I think its a huge generalisation to assume that all freestyle clubs are not training in the traditional elements such as kata.
After all, most traditional styles had to start from splintering off from an original style.
If you take it back to its roots, you could argue that karate is just a freestyle system of Southern Kung Fu!!!????
It is a blend of a Shotokan based freestyle karate and Zankido Ryu Ju Jutsu, my instructor being Dan graded in both.
We train in both traditional katas and freestyle katas.
We train not for competitions (most freestyle clubs seem to emphasise the competing aspect) but for karate's sake (if that makes sense)
We also are train in weapons as well.
I think its a huge generalisation to assume that all freestyle clubs are not training in the traditional elements such as kata.
After all, most traditional styles had to start from splintering off from an original style.
If you take it back to its roots, you could argue that karate is just a freestyle system of Southern Kung Fu!!!????
The Kai
Master of Arts
I think BudoUk has a good point you cannoy generalize.
But I think the freestyle Karate where a person is a tae Kwon Doist and then decides to rename his system "American Freestyle karate" are seeds blowing in the wind. Withgout roots the system will do a little groundfighting a little Aerobicws and so on following latest trends.
Todd
But I think the freestyle Karate where a person is a tae Kwon Doist and then decides to rename his system "American Freestyle karate" are seeds blowing in the wind. Withgout roots the system will do a little groundfighting a little Aerobicws and so on following latest trends.
Todd
BushidoUK
Yellow Belt
A good point Todd.
I have been to many seminars with many styles present. And I, as a freestyler, was embarrassed by the standard of techniques shown by some freestylists, where technique has been sacrificed for "pointscoring"; "street realism"; "its easier to do it this way" etc etc.
My instructor prides himself on teaching good solid technically correct techniques, not deferring to the easier quick win mentality. We often mix with traditional clubs, who are normally surprised when they find out we are a freestyle system because of the way we train. However, there is an amount of snobbery as well. The same people you could have been training with, sparring and groundfighting, will change their attitude when they realise you're a freestylist.
To me, freestyle means not limiting yourself, everyone can teach you something. To others it means, take what works and just use that.
Unfortunately, everyone finds different things that work. e.g. If i show 10 defences to a standard right cross, out of 10 people, most will choose a favourite that is different to everyone else..... so a freestylist has to be careful not to teach only what works for themself.
A good freestyle club should still have a strict syllabus, that encompasses all the necessary basic and advanced techniques, although that syllabus can be amended if and when necessary. Any club that ditches certain aspects such as kata.... really are selling themselves short.
I have been to many seminars with many styles present. And I, as a freestyler, was embarrassed by the standard of techniques shown by some freestylists, where technique has been sacrificed for "pointscoring"; "street realism"; "its easier to do it this way" etc etc.
My instructor prides himself on teaching good solid technically correct techniques, not deferring to the easier quick win mentality. We often mix with traditional clubs, who are normally surprised when they find out we are a freestyle system because of the way we train. However, there is an amount of snobbery as well. The same people you could have been training with, sparring and groundfighting, will change their attitude when they realise you're a freestylist.
To me, freestyle means not limiting yourself, everyone can teach you something. To others it means, take what works and just use that.
Unfortunately, everyone finds different things that work. e.g. If i show 10 defences to a standard right cross, out of 10 people, most will choose a favourite that is different to everyone else..... so a freestylist has to be careful not to teach only what works for themself.
A good freestyle club should still have a strict syllabus, that encompasses all the necessary basic and advanced techniques, although that syllabus can be amended if and when necessary. Any club that ditches certain aspects such as kata.... really are selling themselves short.
Bammx2
2nd Black Belt
I teach a "style" of freestyle martial arts myself.
I don't do kata's.
I have a traditional background in shotkan and shorinryu...as well as various other arts. Some friends of mine got together and formed our own team...."back in the day"...and we trained each other from our main styles.We had a tae know do specialist, as well as a savate,judo,jujitsu,lau gar(sp), full contact kickboxer..and we had a good time! the arguements were hilarious!
What I practice in and teach is getting a base foundation of techniques and then let my students progrees to the best of THIER abilities. I cater to the indivdual not the masses. I have seen too many people left behind because they couldn't do certain things a system physically asks for...but that doesn't neccessarily make bad students and some fail to look at and acknowledge the adaption a student has to make to make a technique work.
I have a friend in england who runs a very successful club...with a high turnover of students. One main reason being his purple belt syllabus is nothing but jumping kicks. Not everyone can do jumping kicks! and if they can't...they don't pass.
I don't do them due to an injury....but I can teach them better than he can.
Do you understand where I am comming from?
A lot of traditional teachers get conditioned in that "because thats the way its been done for centuries" mode. Now don't start harpin just yet!
God bless the ancestors for they have provided for us and I would fight any individual who would try to take traditional away from us!
I have had people walk out of my class because I wasn't traditional enough for them.Thank God I had a list of people they could go to so they could continue thier search.
Then again...I have had people quit tradition because they liked how I taught.
If I have a jumping kick on my syllabus and I have a student who can't perform it....then they have to explain how they would teach it to some one else.
Quote "when I started the martial arts,a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch.Then I realised a kick wasn't just a kick and punch wasn't just a punch.But once I mastered them...I realised a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch"
I don't mind training good fighters...but I'd rather train better teachers...and sometimes certain people have to free thier mind from set rules to accomplish that.
If you prefer tradition,by all means,go for it! I still swear by it!
If you prefer something a little more "free".....go for that...or both!
there is enough in the world for everyone to find a niche and be happy.
I don't do kata's.
I have a traditional background in shotkan and shorinryu...as well as various other arts. Some friends of mine got together and formed our own team...."back in the day"...and we trained each other from our main styles.We had a tae know do specialist, as well as a savate,judo,jujitsu,lau gar(sp), full contact kickboxer..and we had a good time! the arguements were hilarious!
What I practice in and teach is getting a base foundation of techniques and then let my students progrees to the best of THIER abilities. I cater to the indivdual not the masses. I have seen too many people left behind because they couldn't do certain things a system physically asks for...but that doesn't neccessarily make bad students and some fail to look at and acknowledge the adaption a student has to make to make a technique work.
I have a friend in england who runs a very successful club...with a high turnover of students. One main reason being his purple belt syllabus is nothing but jumping kicks. Not everyone can do jumping kicks! and if they can't...they don't pass.
I don't do them due to an injury....but I can teach them better than he can.
Do you understand where I am comming from?
A lot of traditional teachers get conditioned in that "because thats the way its been done for centuries" mode. Now don't start harpin just yet!
God bless the ancestors for they have provided for us and I would fight any individual who would try to take traditional away from us!
I have had people walk out of my class because I wasn't traditional enough for them.Thank God I had a list of people they could go to so they could continue thier search.
Then again...I have had people quit tradition because they liked how I taught.
If I have a jumping kick on my syllabus and I have a student who can't perform it....then they have to explain how they would teach it to some one else.
Quote "when I started the martial arts,a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch.Then I realised a kick wasn't just a kick and punch wasn't just a punch.But once I mastered them...I realised a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch"
I don't mind training good fighters...but I'd rather train better teachers...and sometimes certain people have to free thier mind from set rules to accomplish that.
If you prefer tradition,by all means,go for it! I still swear by it!
If you prefer something a little more "free".....go for that...or both!
there is enough in the world for everyone to find a niche and be happy.
The Kai
Master of Arts
good freestyle club should still have a strict syllabus, that encompasses all the necessary basic and advanced techniques, although that syllabus can be amended if and when necessary. Any club that ditches certain aspects such as kata.... really are selling themselves short.
Agreed the sllyabus, kihon and advanced techniques make up any system whether you say you are a freestylist or a traditionalist. I guess my peeve is more the people who rename a system from TKD to Karate (or Karate to Kung Fu for that matter) without knowing the principles or concepts that are behind the label
Todd
Agreed the sllyabus, kihon and advanced techniques make up any system whether you say you are a freestylist or a traditionalist. I guess my peeve is more the people who rename a system from TKD to Karate (or Karate to Kung Fu for that matter) without knowing the principles or concepts that are behind the label
Todd
The Kai
Master of Arts
What I practice in and teach is getting a base foundation of techniques and then let my students progrees to the best of THIER abilities. I cater to the indivdual not the masses. I have seen too many people left behind because they couldn't do certain things a system physically asks for...but that doesn't neccessarily make bad students and some fail to look at and acknowledge the adaption a student has to make to make a technique work.
I have a friend in england who runs a very successful club...with a high turnover of students. One main reason being his purple belt syllabus is nothing but jumping kicks. Not everyone can do jumping kicks! and if they can't...they don't pass.
I agree with your idea, if someone is incapable due to injury of a certain catagory then it is not tradition, but fatalism (my opinion) to make them try (of course they will fail). I don't do a ton of jumping kicks, I don't really see the need when I can kick to the head from the ground, Or body, or legs.
However, just for conversation lets say part of the Martial arts is learning to do things you thought you could'nt - so there will be some forcing the student into a mold
I have a friend in england who runs a very successful club...with a high turnover of students. One main reason being his purple belt syllabus is nothing but jumping kicks. Not everyone can do jumping kicks! and if they can't...they don't pass.
I agree with your idea, if someone is incapable due to injury of a certain catagory then it is not tradition, but fatalism (my opinion) to make them try (of course they will fail). I don't do a ton of jumping kicks, I don't really see the need when I can kick to the head from the ground, Or body, or legs.
However, just for conversation lets say part of the Martial arts is learning to do things you thought you could'nt - so there will be some forcing the student into a mold
O
OC Kid
Guest
IMO a free style club is one that broke away from a organization such as JKA/JKF or in my case JABKA. I am teaching a free style because I have no over seeing/over barring association that I have to pay dues to to get nothing but the use of their name and their rules and patch with out any flexibility all in the name of "quality".
To say that free style clubs dont do kata is unreasonable. Some dont some do. As a free stylists it is up to the instructor to decide whether or to teach kata/forms and which ones and which order to teach them as well as the requirements for each rank and belt colors ect.
As a student its up to me to decide if thats what I want.
I teach free style. I teach basic katas the 5 pinions the 3 nahanchis ( Tekkis Nifungis what ever you want to call them) ,bassai sho, bassai dai, chinto but I also added rohai because I really like that kata. Even though it is not acknowledge by my old association. im wanting to add a softer form maybe Kempos long form 4 just to add some variation. I am free to do that.
I also incorporated some more relevent critera in testing. I dont care if the student knows the complete entire history of my system who begat whom. they should have a basic linage understanding but a complete history all the way back to southern china???? No way. Do they need to know the names of the stances in Japanese for tradition sake? No way? the last I heard this is America we speak english here.
To say that free style clubs dont do kata is unreasonable. Some dont some do. As a free stylists it is up to the instructor to decide whether or to teach kata/forms and which ones and which order to teach them as well as the requirements for each rank and belt colors ect.
As a student its up to me to decide if thats what I want.
I teach free style. I teach basic katas the 5 pinions the 3 nahanchis ( Tekkis Nifungis what ever you want to call them) ,bassai sho, bassai dai, chinto but I also added rohai because I really like that kata. Even though it is not acknowledge by my old association. im wanting to add a softer form maybe Kempos long form 4 just to add some variation. I am free to do that.
I also incorporated some more relevent critera in testing. I dont care if the student knows the complete entire history of my system who begat whom. they should have a basic linage understanding but a complete history all the way back to southern china???? No way. Do they need to know the names of the stances in Japanese for tradition sake? No way? the last I heard this is America we speak english here.
BushidoUK
Yellow Belt
"I don't do a ton of jumping kicks, I don't really see the need when I can kick to the head from the ground, Or body, or legs.
Personally I think jumping kicks are misunderstood. I was always taught that these type of kicks were not necessarily for height but for extra power (because of the use of 100% body weight behind the technique)
For example one of my favourite immobilisation techniques would be a jumping side kick into someones thigh. The jump just giving extra power to the kick.
To expect every student to kick to the same height by a certain grade etc is obviously unrealistic, especially when you get into jumping kicks.
Personally I think jumping kicks are misunderstood. I was always taught that these type of kicks were not necessarily for height but for extra power (because of the use of 100% body weight behind the technique)
For example one of my favourite immobilisation techniques would be a jumping side kick into someones thigh. The jump just giving extra power to the kick.
To expect every student to kick to the same height by a certain grade etc is obviously unrealistic, especially when you get into jumping kicks.
OP
OP
Shogun
Master Black Belt
Let me rephrase what I originally posted. what I really meant to say is:
I respect any martial arts. Freestyle Karate included. I see value in any type of physical movement (its rare nowadays). what I originally meant by saying I dont se value in freestyle, is false. I just DO see more value Kata and traditional karate. in doing all three types of Karate though, sport, traditional, combat/street, someone might get a better understanding of their art.
just my opinion....
I respect any martial arts. Freestyle Karate included. I see value in any type of physical movement (its rare nowadays). what I originally meant by saying I dont se value in freestyle, is false. I just DO see more value Kata and traditional karate. in doing all three types of Karate though, sport, traditional, combat/street, someone might get a better understanding of their art.
just my opinion....
I
Ippon Ken
Guest
No thought needed. Plastic is as plastic does. Not plastic meaning flexibilty, plastrick as in fake and another effort to separate suckers from their ducats.Shogun said:
Without forms, patterns or drills, what the heck are you doing? Diluted Tae Bo?
H
hippy
Guest
freestyle karate is a wishy-washy label, which is usually incorrectly used.
true freestyle karate is a martial sport made up a mixture of kicking and punching techniques from arts like karate + taekwondo, effectively it is a version of kickboxing that is made. no katas are needed, as freestyle does not explore the art behind it. kreestyle karate is popular only in the western world, due to the 'quick-fix' style of the western mind. if someone wants to quickly learn to fight, a western kickboxing (freestyle) school is the first thing anyone thinks of. they dont immediatly consider the history or the artform behind it, they just want to quickly learn to punch and kick. which these schools are very effective at, as is the newer tae-bo.
however, there are schools calling themselves 'freestyle' but still contain traditional elements. unfortunatly they are either trying to use the 'freestyle' buzz-word to entice people to join, or they are not wanting to label themselves as any specific style. dont get me wrong, these are not bad schools / instructors teaching poor moves, far from it. go to any tournament, and some of the best fighters (non-grappling) do not primarily train at 'traditional' schools, they come from the newer freestyle karate/kickboxing clubs.
but never forget, these are martial sports, not martial arts. just as judo is the sport/competition of something like jujitsu.
true freestyle karate is a martial sport made up a mixture of kicking and punching techniques from arts like karate + taekwondo, effectively it is a version of kickboxing that is made. no katas are needed, as freestyle does not explore the art behind it. kreestyle karate is popular only in the western world, due to the 'quick-fix' style of the western mind. if someone wants to quickly learn to fight, a western kickboxing (freestyle) school is the first thing anyone thinks of. they dont immediatly consider the history or the artform behind it, they just want to quickly learn to punch and kick. which these schools are very effective at, as is the newer tae-bo.
however, there are schools calling themselves 'freestyle' but still contain traditional elements. unfortunatly they are either trying to use the 'freestyle' buzz-word to entice people to join, or they are not wanting to label themselves as any specific style. dont get me wrong, these are not bad schools / instructors teaching poor moves, far from it. go to any tournament, and some of the best fighters (non-grappling) do not primarily train at 'traditional' schools, they come from the newer freestyle karate/kickboxing clubs.
but never forget, these are martial sports, not martial arts. just as judo is the sport/competition of something like jujitsu.
OP
OP
Shogun
Master Black Belt
So basically, everyone stands at this:
Freestyle Karate is good for tournaments, or for the street. But it is totally different than Traditional Karate, and should never be mixed. Traditional/classical Karate CAN be good for tournaments or street, but is not Freestyle. Ok. makes sense.
Cheers,
K. Elliott
Freestyle Karate is good for tournaments, or for the street. But it is totally different than Traditional Karate, and should never be mixed. Traditional/classical Karate CAN be good for tournaments or street, but is not Freestyle. Ok. makes sense.
Cheers,
K. Elliott
O
OC Kid
Guest
It all depends on what you call "free style " and tradition"..hehehehe here we go again :>)
OP
OP
Shogun
Master Black Belt
LOL.
I'll define them as this:
Freestyle = Any of the various Empty hand styles of Karate Martial arts Derived from Karate-Do used mainly as a form of self defense. Also used in Tournaments, some styles are geared towards competition. They are always expanding, and because freestyle is a open art, new techniques and philisophies are added all the time.
Traditional = Various styles of empty hand martial arts. Traditional Karate-do arts are usually passed from teacher to student with little or no modification to the art. They are sometimes but not always created over 100 years ago.
Thats what I think anyway.
I'll define them as this:
Freestyle = Any of the various Empty hand styles of Karate Martial arts Derived from Karate-Do used mainly as a form of self defense. Also used in Tournaments, some styles are geared towards competition. They are always expanding, and because freestyle is a open art, new techniques and philisophies are added all the time.
Traditional = Various styles of empty hand martial arts. Traditional Karate-do arts are usually passed from teacher to student with little or no modification to the art. They are sometimes but not always created over 100 years ago.
Thats what I think anyway.
H
hippy
Guest
i'll go with that definition.
D
doug russell smith
Guest
I think that there is a tendancy to over generalize and group "styles" into convenient little boxes. I am a "traditionalist", but I have been involved with many martial artists, over the years, from a wide range of styles. Coming from a conservative Goju Ryu background, I was taught and led to believe that "free stylists" were nothing more than ego driven showboats who were in it for nothing more than collecting thier plastic trophys and five minutes of fame. These were evil people who were destroying the essence of martial arts. What I saw at tournements in the early eighties, did little to dissuade me from believing this. However many years have come and gone, and as I have gotten older I have since met people that have made me reflect on my set in stone views.
Example: I hosted a tournement last year, and because of my involvement with various groups there was unusually polarized mix of HardCore Traditionalists, and Freestylists. I knew that there was bound to be some issues because of the mix, but I was disapointed to see that the Traditionalists were the ones who were the most intolerant and rude! I thought that the freestylists showed the best manners,acceptance and values, things that I had always associated and prided as being traditional. I guess this conversation is a lot like, "which style is the best"? Its one thing to be loyal and respect a system or style, but in the end, and as always its the INDIVIDUAL that determines its merit.
Example: I hosted a tournement last year, and because of my involvement with various groups there was unusually polarized mix of HardCore Traditionalists, and Freestylists. I knew that there was bound to be some issues because of the mix, but I was disapointed to see that the Traditionalists were the ones who were the most intolerant and rude! I thought that the freestylists showed the best manners,acceptance and values, things that I had always associated and prided as being traditional. I guess this conversation is a lot like, "which style is the best"? Its one thing to be loyal and respect a system or style, but in the end, and as always its the INDIVIDUAL that determines its merit.
J
jakmak52
Guest
I'd like to think that every style/discipline of all martial arts has a benefit to those who enjoy them. There's a cover for every pot
