miguksaram
Master of Arts
I am more of keyboard ninja than commando.
What did the "Sport" do to Taekwondo?
- Thread starter d1jinx
- Start date
Kindly give us a progress report on your research concerning political ascension in Korea through mortal combat.
punisher73
Senior Master
Am I the only one who kind of regards this topic in relation to rank and sport kind of ironic?
I mean, the whole idea of rank came from sports rankings and was used as a "handicap" system like golf for competitors.
In a "traditional" karate dojo in Japan or Okinawa, it is not unusual to have kids as blackbelts and getting a blackbelt in a year or two. Again, Sho-Dan literally means, "low rank". It was used to distinguish someone as ready to start learning the art because they had the basics down.
It is only our perceptions of what a BB should be that cloud the issue. After the martial arts were exported to other countries more emphasis was placed on the blackbelt. Most of the teachers were GI's that only had a year or two of training anyways before they came back to the US. They had no formal training as how to train and teach students, they just did the best they could. They also stretched out the process a lot longer than it took them to reach the same goal. Weed out people and make a blackbelt a rarity, and it seems alot more impressive to outsiders, than a rank that is given to most people in their countries of origin. Think about it, you want to show how your blackbelts are the toughest around? Make it three times as long as someone from a different art. If in a traditional dojo it takes 2-3 years, we make ours wait 5-7 years. Well, now they have twice as much experience so of course they should be better. 5-7 years not enough, now lets make it at least a 10 year process so we can be sure that our blackbelts are never beaten.
So what does this have to do with respect and the sport of TKD? Why do we expect students to all have respect when the whole process is based on being better than everyone else? How do you teach humility when your whole grading system is based on "us" being the best? No matter WHAT your endeavor is, when you place the focus on winning vs. training you will have disrespect among the people.
Look at any professional sport, they don't care what a person's integrity is, they only want their skill. So, even though the person is a criminal and would be fired if they had a regular job, the offense is excused because they are a good athlete and get wins, which means more money for the owners.
Now bad behavior is encouraged in sports because it builds rivalries and sells more tickets. When I was a kid, it used to be Team X vs. Team Y and they would have a rivalry. Now, when you watch pro sports its, John Smith, and Team X vs. John Johnson, and Team Y. The team and teamwork is secondary to being a superstar. Do we really think that when all of society puts emphasis on this that our kids will be any different, or adults new to the sport of TKD will be any different? Nope.
I mean, the whole idea of rank came from sports rankings and was used as a "handicap" system like golf for competitors.
In a "traditional" karate dojo in Japan or Okinawa, it is not unusual to have kids as blackbelts and getting a blackbelt in a year or two. Again, Sho-Dan literally means, "low rank". It was used to distinguish someone as ready to start learning the art because they had the basics down.
It is only our perceptions of what a BB should be that cloud the issue. After the martial arts were exported to other countries more emphasis was placed on the blackbelt. Most of the teachers were GI's that only had a year or two of training anyways before they came back to the US. They had no formal training as how to train and teach students, they just did the best they could. They also stretched out the process a lot longer than it took them to reach the same goal. Weed out people and make a blackbelt a rarity, and it seems alot more impressive to outsiders, than a rank that is given to most people in their countries of origin. Think about it, you want to show how your blackbelts are the toughest around? Make it three times as long as someone from a different art. If in a traditional dojo it takes 2-3 years, we make ours wait 5-7 years. Well, now they have twice as much experience so of course they should be better. 5-7 years not enough, now lets make it at least a 10 year process so we can be sure that our blackbelts are never beaten.
So what does this have to do with respect and the sport of TKD? Why do we expect students to all have respect when the whole process is based on being better than everyone else? How do you teach humility when your whole grading system is based on "us" being the best? No matter WHAT your endeavor is, when you place the focus on winning vs. training you will have disrespect among the people.
Look at any professional sport, they don't care what a person's integrity is, they only want their skill. So, even though the person is a criminal and would be fired if they had a regular job, the offense is excused because they are a good athlete and get wins, which means more money for the owners.
Now bad behavior is encouraged in sports because it builds rivalries and sells more tickets. When I was a kid, it used to be Team X vs. Team Y and they would have a rivalry. Now, when you watch pro sports its, John Smith, and Team X vs. John Johnson, and Team Y. The team and teamwork is secondary to being a superstar. Do we really think that when all of society puts emphasis on this that our kids will be any different, or adults new to the sport of TKD will be any different? Nope.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Do you have a specific example in mind?
I've been researching Goju-ryu karate curricula recently, and I've been told directly in correspondence with the Jundokan in Okinawa that the expectation for their shodan is generally 4-6 years. They also noted that it was not seen as a bad thing to take longer if needed. They make no distinction between children and adults.
I personally believe the karate world is centering on the idea of 5 years as the expected time to achieve shodan in a full system complete with weapons study. Not sure whether this was first a Western idea or not, but I think it has made its way back to the source and has been embraced there.
punisher73
Senior Master
The JKA has a program for college students to achieve BB in a year. It designed the curriculum around how long the person is in college and how many hours a day they can train. Same with many of the traditional arts when they first started teaching the GI's.
I would agree that the larger organizations (even of traditional arts) have fallen in line with the average time for blackbelt. Goju-Ryu, was among the first okinawan styles to switch over to the more japanese version of ranking/structure. I think that time has gone on, standards are different as to what the rank of sho-dan means. Now, it comes with an expectation of something.
As an example, I know of one okinawan art (not blaming the art, or saying anything bad, just using it as an example of how things changed) that used to take about 18 months to learn the requirements up to bb, now there are schools and organizations that require 5-7 years to learn the exact same material to reach bb in this style. Uechi-Ryu is another one that on average can take about 2-3 years to learn and achieve BB, and in other schools or organizations it takes double that.
While giving examples, I realize that I am thinking more of the earlier ranking systems (60's and 70's) before all of the big organizations came in and stretched out the requirements to achieve BB. That would be a whole different thread, as to why it takes longer now.
If it takes five years for 1st Dan, how long does it take for the rest of the dans? Also, why would you issue your students a Taekwondo dan when it seems that your interest is focused mainly on Okinawan martial arts? Why not give them a dan in Goju Ryu, from your teacher?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
It varies depending on teacher and style. It took me another 7 years after shodan to achieve nidan and then a short 3 years more to take sandan. Then another 3-4 for yondan. I daresay this is very subjective/individual as my teacher is not part of any group that has standardized requirements of time in grade and such.
As for your second question, I actually teach martial arts in 5 different venues. I teach Goju-ryu at my private dojo and I do award rank in Goju there. I also teach TKD (influenced by karate and aikido) at my church along with some other instructors outside of my line, although I am the head instructor.
Any of the taekwondo practitioners at your school practice the Taeguek poomsae? Also what lineage of Aikido do you come from? My cousin called me this weekend and told me the 3rd Aikido Doshu is coming to give a seminar next week.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
No. We do the Chang Hon forms, albeit not according to the last directions General Choi left.
I am Aikikai, so I do regard Ueshiba Doshu as the head of my style. My lineage runs through Yamada Shihan. Although to be sure, my wife and I have friends in many of the 'splinter' groups and we do not have a problem sharing the mat with them.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Just out of interest (as you mentioned it) - I assume Yondan is 4th Dan? Also what grade are you in Taekwondo?
It's not that important but I just wondered as you posted your grade in Karate to see if you are equal, lower or higher in Taekwondo...
Feel free to PM if you don't want it publicly known.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Yes, yondan = 4th.
And I'm not bothered by sharing my various ranks. I have a 2nd dan in Jhoon Rhee TKD. I have not sought advancement in that system in decades, although to be fair there is not much new material after black belt as my TKD teacher taught it. It a matter of learning a few new forms at each level and only at the performance level at that.
I am interested in buying one of my friend's schools from him, and if I do I would resume studying TKD under him.
And I'm not bothered by sharing my various ranks. I have a 2nd dan in Jhoon Rhee TKD. I have not sought advancement in that system in decades, although to be fair there is not much new material after black belt as my TKD teacher taught it. It a matter of learning a few new forms at each level and only at the performance level at that.
I am interested in buying one of my friend's schools from him, and if I do I would resume studying TKD under him.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
I am not sure how the rest of the Karate world does it but we usually follow this criteria for ours:
1st dan - We don't have a set time to achieve...however, the average has been about 4-5 years, if you started fresh from white belt with no experience in martial arts.
2nd dan - Usually 1 -2 years based on attending classes, helping the school, etc.
3rd dan - Minimum 3 years at 2nd dan plus attending classes, helping the school, etc.
4th dan - Minimum 4 years at 3rd dan plus helping the school, etc.
5th dan - Minimum 5 years at 4th dan
6th dan - Minimum 6 years at 5th dan
Not sure about the 7th-up.
Yamada Shihan and the third Doshu are coming to Hawaii for a seminar this weekend to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Ueshiba Sensei's visit.
http://www.aikidohawaii2011.org/
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Sounds like fun. I usually am able to see Yamada Shihan twice a year, but generally it's when I travel to the East Coast.
As a hapkido man, do you practice much with aikido-ka?
TKD Scotland
Yellow Belt
I think the globalisation of the sport is a good thing for Taekwon-do. Although there's no doubt the respect factor has diluted(Look at Angel Matos in the 2008 olympics) but instructors do try to keep respect for the art. From day one I was always taught to bow to those of a higher grade, shake hands after a fight, call instructors "Sir" or "Miss" and never questions umpires.
Not really. If I studied Aikido, I would just do what they did in class like how they did it, and perhaps on my own time I would blend the arts together as an evolution of my Hapkido. My original Hapkido teacher was a student of GM MYONG Jae Nam, so there was some Aikido influence already. I tend to emphasize smoothness and flowing more than some of my juniors, who are more into manhandling and forcing.
