What did the "Sport" do to Taekwondo?

[d1jinx]

For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.

When the USTU ran things, they had many issues too, but the respect factor was almost always present (sometime overboard but still there, remember opening ceremonies and gifts to all the grandmasters... that lasted HOURS?)

But as soon as the USAT took over, we swung the pendulum as far to the left as possible, where there is NO respect for rank or the art. Only respect given is to "winners". And the coaches of these winners. Who in some cases (within USAT) hold NO OFFICAL RANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (NOTE TO ALL: Official Rank within the WTF/USAT/Olympic community is a Kukkiwon cert... this isnt a debate about what official rank is, within this WTF sanctioned SPORT ... IT IS KukKiWon)

I have never been a drop to your feet and worship me type of person, but a little respect is deserved but rarely given within this Sport community.

 

[miguksaram]

I agree that the respect aspect seems to have disappeared, but I do not believe this was a "sport" issue. As you pointed out, when USTU ran things, respect to one's seniors and to others was definetly present. This leads me to believe that it is the mentalilty of the organizational higher ups, in my opinoin, that has constituted the downfall of respect.

 

[terryl965]

Respect at sport TKD events what the heck is that? I mean look on this board some of these people, they do not care some here have over forty years in the art because if you are not kissing the right buttocks than you are wrong. I guess I am too the point where I just want to start beating the living crap out of some of these people and then they can give me my respect. Seriously this is how I feel, I have never been one to blow my own horn but lately my students are asking why I am not getting due respect from some of these younger people.

 

[miguksaram]

Let me ask this...do you see more of the lack of respect at the local level of tournaments, at the national level of tournaments or both? On my end I see, for the most part that on a local level people still hold the decorum of respect, however on a national level I see a lot less.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.

When the USTU ran things, they had many issues too, but the respect factor was almost always present (sometime overboard but still there, remember opening ceremonies and gifts to all the grandmasters... that lasted HOURS?)

But as soon as the USAT took over, we swung the pendulum as far to the left as possible, where there is NO respect for rank or the art. Only respect given is to "winners". And the coaches of these winners. Who in some cases (within USAT) hold NO OFFICAL RANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (NOTE TO ALL: Official Rank within the WTF/USAT/Olympic community is a Kukkiwon cert... this isnt a debate about what official rank is, within this WTF sanctioned SPORT ... IT IS KukKiWon)

I have never been a drop to your feet and worship me type of person, but a little respect is deserved but rarely given within this Sport community.

It's a sport. Its about winning. Rank is irrelevent in sport. You either win or you lose. Why? Because its a sport. Why does it surprise anyone that this has happened? Look at the behaviour of athletes in sports that have no connection to a formal martial art. Its the same there. After all, its a sport, so winning is the priority.

Sport taekwondo has divorced itself from the art. So what did people think was going to happen after the sport became an entirely separate entity? If a green belt can beat a black belt, does the belt really mean anything? In a sport, the belt means squat. If the green belt can win, he's better. Period. After all, its a sport.

Daniel

 

[d1jinx]

Let me ask this...do you see more of the lack of respect at the local level of tournaments, at the national level of tournaments or both? On my end I see, for the most part that on a local level people still hold the decorum of respect, however on a national level I see a lot less.

ABSOLUTELY,

Local events usually have more respect than national, however alot of that would be based off of a few factors. One usually at local events, most schools and instructors know each other, or of eachother and at national events not so much.

Also at local events, there is usually a comradery of "hey I'll support your tournament so you can return the favor when I have mine" type atmoshere. So business depends on a co-operation of masters and school owners.

So I find myself forced to defend a "possible" cause for larger events not having as much respect toward each other... which I still blame on the ATMOSPHERE of the Current ORG.

example: even at a regional event such as qualifiers, most instructors/coaches are connected to eachother some how. someone knows someone who knows someone. So there are few "strangers" at a regional event... but yet there respect is still lacking quite a bit. Coaches act like asses, students show no respect toward anyone to include spectators.... and sometimes.... chairs get thrown. (and tables).

Is it because people feel more is at stake at these events so they act this way? or is it the atmosphere at these events?

 

[d1jinx]

It's a sport. Its about winning. Rank is irrelevent in sport. You either win or you lose. Why? Because its a sport. Why does it surprise anyone that this has happened? Look at the behaviour of athletes in sports that have no connection to a formal martial art. Its the same there. After all, its a sport, so winning is the priority.

Sport taekwondo has divorced itself from the art. So what did people think was going to happen after the sport became an entirely separate entity? If a green belt can beat a black belt, does the belt really mean anything? In a sport, the belt means squat. If the green belt can win, he's better. Period. After all, its a sport.

Daniel

kindof my point... we all started in the ART. and still practice the ART.... yet...

 

[Touch Of Death]

For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.

When the USTU ran things, they had many issues too, but the respect factor was almost always present (sometime overboard but still there, remember opening ceremonies and gifts to all the grandmasters... that lasted HOURS?)

But as soon as the USAT took over, we swung the pendulum as far to the left as possible, where there is NO respect for rank or the art. Only respect given is to "winners". And the coaches of these winners. Who in some cases (within USAT) hold NO OFFICAL RANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (NOTE TO ALL: Official Rank within the WTF/USAT/Olympic community is a Kukkiwon cert... this isnt a debate about what official rank is, within this WTF sanctioned SPORT ... IT IS KukKiWon)

I have never been a drop to your feet and worship me type of person, but a little respect is deserved but rarely given within this Sport community.

Sport TKD is both a blessing and a curse.

 

[Gorilla]

We still follow the rules of respect. My kids if they are approached by or see a Master that they know or even a fellow Black Belt they stop what they are doing and shake hands as a show of respect. If you follow the rules of common courtesy which is to respect your elders/others you will be fine in TKD. The fact that it is a sport should not matter. In fact if it is a parent of a fellow athlete they stop and show respect. If they didn't they would hear it from me.

I feel that respect is an individual responsibility!


The lack of respect shown by leaders of an organization is a reflection on that organization!

 

[ATC]

We still follow the rules of respect. My kids if they are approached by or see a Master that they know or even a fellow Black Belt they stop what they are doing and shake hands as a show of respect. If you follow the rules of common courtesy which is to respect your elders/others you will be fine in TKD. The fact that it is a sport should not matter. In fact if it is a parent of a fellow athlete they stop and show respect. If they didn't they would hear it from me.

I feel that respect is an individual responsibility!


The lack of respect shown by leaders of an organization is a reflection on that organization!

Ditto what Gorilla said. Too many look at Martial Arts as just punching, kicking and take downs. It is so much more than that. This is why formalities are needed in the dojang. Bowing, yes sir and no sir, and having an order of respect via the ranking system.

 

[Cirdan]

Ditto what Gorilla said. Too many look at Martial Arts as just punching, kicking and take downs. It is so much more than that. This is why formalities are needed in the dojang. Bowing, yes sir and no sir, and having an order of respect via the ranking system.

Not that I disagree, but what exactly is the "much more" that formality brings to training?
Basing respect on rank is not always smart either, in some styles low ranked persons might wery well be national champions (a green belt friend of mine was) or have extensive background in other arts.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

kindof my point... we all started in the ART. and still practice the ART.... yet...

The fact that the sport and the art have the same name is, in my opinion, hugely problematic. I realize that the rule set was designed to showcase taekwondo's kicks in a live setting. But look at what it has turned into.

It is now a foot/leg fencing sport that allows a continuous match for a set period of time and whoever makes contact to valid target areas the greatest number of times is the winner. Not much room for art there. And the sport will get promoted more than the art because there is much more money to be made in the sport.

The sport is not a bad sport; actually, its pretty cool. But it has gone down the same road that sport fencing has: poke the other guy more than he pokes you. If you're contorted like a pretzel and off ballance, so what? You got the point. If he hits you while you hit him, so what? You both got a point so you are either still ahead or no further behind.

Sport TKD needs to take a page from the kendo rule book. No valid point if you're off ballance, exhibit poor form, or are sloppy in your execution. Personally, I think that they should reset the fighters after a valid point is scored, but make the scoring that point more challenging. Keep the electronic hogu but also make judging of the form and execution the primary focus of scoring rather than just hit or no hit.

In kendo, formality is maintained throughout the tournament. You don't see fist pumping, victory dances, trash talking, or any of the other things that you see in ball sports. This needs to be enforced in taekwondo. At least if the art is to be more connected to the sport.

Otherwise, completely separate the sport, ditch the fixed belt ranks and do it like fencing, where your ranking goes up and down based on your competition record, current ranking of your competition, and frequency of your competing.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not that I disagree, but what exactly is the "much more" that formality brings to training?
Basing respect on rank is not always smart either, in some styles low ranked persons might wery well be national champions (a green belt friend of mine was) or have extensive background in other arts.

Not to mention that rank is, as we all know, abused, bought and paid for these days. Another hole that taekwondo schools have dug themselves into. We've seen all of the discussions about eight year old black belts, black belts who look like yellow belts, black belts from one school who go to another school only to be no better than green and blue belts, and sometimes not even that.

In a sport, rank is meaningless. You're only as good as your last fight, and the only rank that counts, champion, is difficult to hold onto; everyone is gunning for you.

I do feel that respect needs to be a pervasive thing. When at the dojang, respect is not based upon rank, but is part of the culture of the dojang. Low ranks are respected for beginning the journey and high ranks are respected for their progress and the insight that they can impart.

Respect is, as I recall, one of the tenets of taekwondo, regardless of rank.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

It's a sport. Its about winning. Rank is irrelevent in sport. You either win or you lose. Why? Because its a sport. Why does it surprise anyone that this has happened? Look at the behaviour of athletes in sports that have no connection to a formal martial art. Its the same there. After all, its a sport, so winning is the priority.

I agree that rank is irrelevent while in play, but outside of the ring, it should still hold merrit. Unlike the other sports out there, we were brought up, in theory, under the umbrella of respect for seniors and juniors. Trash talking, back in the day, was extremely frowned upon in TKD competition, hopefully still is. For other sports it is part of the culture.

Sport taekwondo has divorced itself from the art. So what did people think was going to happen after the sport became an entirely separate entity?

Wherein lies the problem. It should never be a seperate part of TKD. The sport is still part of TKD and as such should still follow the decorum of respect that it was raised on. However, like you said, the sport mentality seems to be trumping the art mentality and that is sad.

If a green belt can beat a black belt, does the belt really mean anything? In a sport, the belt means squat. If the green belt can win, he's better. Period. After all, its a sport.

I agree, while in the ring, it is the better man/woman who should win regardless of rank. However, once you step outside of the ring rank should again be a factor in how one addresses another. This is not to say if the black belt was a total *** then you should respect him/her regardless. If they are not deserving of respect due to a character flaw, the so be it, but until then respect should established.

 

[miguksaram]

ABSOLUTELY,

Local events usually have more respect than national, however alot of that would be based off of a few factors. One usually at local events, most schools and instructors know each other, or of eachother and at national events not so much.

And this may be the difference between USTU and USAT. During the days of USTU, many of the GM's knew each other via, their Korean connection and had a closer relationship with one another. As such the national level events still held that respect mentality because of that connection, similar to how local events hold that mentality now. If a player disrespected another player, their instructor would hear about and it and the inevitable poop would role down hill. As the old gaurd was pushed out in USAT, this cross country connection was pushed out as well. It seems, from what I read and such that the new gaurd does not have a close of relationship with on another outside of national events. Players seem to have more "freedom" if you will, to do and act as they please with no fear of rebuttal for their actions. So this too may cause the lack of respect amongst players.

 

[miguksaram]

Not to mention that rank is, as we all know, abused, bought and paid for these days. Another hole that taekwondo schools have dug themselves into.

Not just Taekwondo but martial arts in general.

Respect is, as I recall, one of the tenets of taekwondo, regardless of rank.

Exactly

 

[Cirdan]

I do feel that respect needs to be a pervasive thing.

Indeed. There are also very real benefits in a fight to this. Disrespecting your opponent is the same as potentially underestimating him, leaving you open to attack. When I bow to someone it is not a mindless gesture, I try to feel their rythm and intention. What is labeled as formality (and laughed at in some circles) is in fact as much part of the arts as punching or kicking.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not just Taekwondo but martial arts in general.

Yes, but I think that it is pretty safe to say that Taekwondo comprises the largest percentage of it, due to the art having the largest number of schools.

I'm also willing to say that taekwondo led the way in regards to the devaluation of the belts. The devaluation of rank is due to rampant commercialization, which taekwondo is the most affected by. Belts and rank became another avenue of income. Once that happened, rank was no longer worthy of the same respect.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Yes, but I think that it is pretty safe to say that Taekwondo comprises the largest percentage of it, due to the art having the largest number of schools.

I'm also willing to say that taekwondo led the way in regards to the devaluation of the belts. The devaluation of rank is due to rampant commercialization, which taekwondo is the most affected by. Belts and rank became another avenue of income. Once that happened, rank was no longer worthy of the same respect.

Daniel

Since TKD is the most popular you definetly see it most rampant in the belt mills. What would be an interesting study is to see if the percentage of TKD schools that are belt mills are the same or more than that of other arts.

In other words you may have 100 TKD schools and 60 of them are belt mills (60%) and you have 40 Karate schools and 24 of them are belt mills (60%) so it would be the same. There just happen to be more TKD schools than Karate.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree that rank is irrelevent while in play, but outside of the ring, it should still hold merrit. Unlike the other sports out there, we were brought up, in theory, under the umbrella of respect for seniors and juniors. Trash talking, back in the day, was extremely frowned upon in TKD competition, hopefully still is. For other sports it is part of the culture.

Wherein lies the problem. It should never be a seperate part of TKD. The sport is still part of TKD and as such should still follow the decorum of respect that it was raised on. However, like you said, the sport mentality seems to be trumping the art mentality and that is sad.



I agree, while in the ring, it is the better man/woman who should win regardless of rank. However, wants you step outside of the ring rank should again be a factor in how one addresses another. This is not to say if the black belt was a total *** then you should respect him/her regardless. If they are not deserving of respect due to a character flaw, the so be it, but until then respect should established.

I agree with you in principle, but in reality, sport is sport and is no longer representative of taekwondo. Other sports have ways of dealing with respect. Fencing still maintains a high degree of sportsmanship, inspite of the fact that it is most definitely a sport.

Sport mentality will continue to trump the art because the art has, in my opinion, lost any clear direction, in large part due to the state of the three largest groups (KKW/WTF, ITF, and ATA) while sport is straight forward.

If you are going to go the sport rout, you need to accept that the sport is not a martial art and run it like a sport. Or make the 'art' aspects of taekwondo a more integral part of the sport (see my kendo comparison in my previous post). The latter would be preferable, but not likely.

Daniel