What are the non Tang Soo Do branches of Moo Duk Kwan?

[Dirty Dog]

Why do you say that when you are still doing them/teaching them without SW? You have seen a Shotokan kata? Just compare it with yourself? Do you do them differently today?

I certainly hope so. If I haven't learned anything in the last 50 years, I've sure wasted a lot of my time. And the time of my instructors. And that of my students.
But honestly, do you really think I can remember exactly how I moved for a ton of different techniques 50 years ago? Can you remember exactly (not just kinda sorta, but exactly) how you moved to kick or throw a ball 20 years ago? I tend to doubt it.

 

[Acronym]

I certainly hope so. If I haven't learned anything in the last 50 years, I've sure wasted a lot of my time. And the time of my instructors. And that of my students.
But honestly, do you really think I can remember exactly how I moved for a ton of different techniques 50 years ago? Can you remember exactly (not just kinda sorta, but exactly) how you moved to kick or throw a ball 20 years ago? I tend to doubt it.

I would expect you to remember if you made any body mechanical changes to how you punch in the Chang Hon patterns, yes.. I mean if you don't remember that, then a fair inference is that you didn't change anything fundamentally.

But regardless of what you remember or not, why can't you compare how you do it today with a random Shotokan player? I kick or throw a ball the same way.

 

[Acronym]

Now on this Moo Duk Kwan TKD business. I have learned very little from someone telling me he trained/trains that since it's a fractured organization.

Isn't there something else you can say that makes it more clear?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Nope. Nothing arbitrary about it. Or at least, it's no more arbitrary than the way you're taught forms.

I think Acronym's use of "arbitrary" was probably ill advised. I find the order of the Chang Hon forms, particularly at the color belt levels to have progressive difficulty forming a certain foundation and becoming progressively more difficult. At the BB level all is not so clear cut.

 

[Earl Weiss]

OK, and? Teaching different methods of power generation does not require teaching sine wave.

Perhaps not from a terminology perspective. But many today seem to favor flexing the knees to generate power in hand techniques while using Kinetic / closed chain linking. IMO it's all describing the same thing. Exaggerated for patterns - Certainly - but so is a lot of stuff in various TMAs.

 

[Earl Weiss]

After all, your instructor started with the ITF 1-2 years before I did.

Acronym - what country are you in? Do you care to name your instructor who started in 1966?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think Acronym's use of "arbitrary" was probably ill advised. I find the order of the Chang Hon forms, particularly at the color belt levels to have progressive difficulty forming a certain foundation and becoming progressively more difficult. At the BB level all is not so clear cut.

I would agree, and say that the same holds true for the Palgwae and Taegeuk forms. I also agree that it's different for the various Yudanja forms. I would speculate that this is, at least in part, because the Yudanja forms are not really about teaching new techniques. They seem to be more about refinement. While there may be a technique in the form that has not appeared in earlier forms, the technique itself is, by that point in training, unlikely to be new.

 

[Acronym]

I would agree, and say that the same holds true for the Palgwae and Taegeuk forms. I also agree that it's different for the various Yudanja forms. I would speculate that this is, at least in part, because the Yudanja forms are not really about teaching new techniques. They seem to be more about refinement. While there may be a technique in the form that has not appeared in earlier forms, the technique itself is, by that point in training, unlikely to be new.

I think you misread my post. My point was that the mechanics for the Taegeuk forms are vastly different from the Chang Hon ones, even before SW, and that's where I raised a potential issue. How can you get proficient at the given pattern and don't mix up muscle memory, if you aren't consistently abiding by one mechanics?

If you instead said that you mixed Chang Hon with the original KTA black belt poomsaes, say, then I wouldn't react, since they are more or less the same mechanics with just different sequences of moves.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think you misread my post. My point was that the mechanics for the Taegeuk forms are vastly different from the Chang Hon ones, even before SW, and that's where I raised a potential issue. How can you get proficient at the given pattern and don't mix up muscle memory, if you aren't consistently abiding by one mechanics?

If you instead said that you mixed Chang Hon with the original KTA black belt poomsaes, say, then I wouldn't react, since they are more or less the same mechanics with just different sequences of moves.

Like I said. I guess I teach smart people.

 

[Acronym]

Like I said. I guess I teach smart people.

So people who transition from one Karate style to another and confuse their muscle memory in katas aren't smart? It's often easier to learn systems without prior, conflicting muscle memory of a different style.

 

[Raistlin]

The "official" governing body of TKD MDK is the Korea Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan Association. The Pan American Taekwondo Moodukkwan Association is the North American arm of that association. Their official position is that they want their members to align themselves with the Kukkiwon and all of their curriculum requirements. They do offer Kukkiwon certification but it is not mandatory for their members. They offer TKD MDK certification as well and will recognize the Taegeuk, Palgwe or Pyung Ahn forms for those rank promotions. The rank promotions for TKD MDK are viewed more as a means to maintain records of the TKD MDK community and lineage. Besides this organization there are numerous smaller independent organizations that call themselves TKD MDK.