What are the most universal effective takedowns?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Those are variations of the single and double leg takedowns in wrestling. I am asking because I do not know, which came first Roman wrestling or Kung Fu? Hey @JR 137 , look familiar?

I don't know about wrestling history. The Chinese wrestling can be traced back to yellow emperor time period (2711 BC?)

This picture can be traced back to the Chin Dynasty (246 BC ~ 207 BC).

- The wrestling double legs drops knee down.
- The Kung Fu double legs does not.

- The wrestling single leg uses both hands to grab the leg.
- The Kung Fu single leg uses one hand to grab the leg, and use the other hand to push the upper body (neck, shoulder, head, ...).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You generally only have to touch your knee to the ground for a double leg takedown when your opponent is crouched in a low wrestling stance. If he’s standing up throwing punches you don’t need to go that low.

And even if you go to the knee, it's not with a lot of force. I played goalkeeper in soccer for 11 years, and rarely wore knee pads. It probably wasn't a good decision, but even kneeling on a rock never caused much of a distraction in the moment. As @drop bear might comment, the ground isn't lava.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We didn't cover those when I was training, but then I never got to anything like the whole curriculum. I don't recall ever seeing any of the upper belts working those.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I was speaking philosophically. It accounts for the difference in stance, and the rules in Judo that penalize too much defense. You are correct they're basically approaching the same job, but with a slight difference in priority.


I think you're correct about Judo never having much in leg takedowns. I don't recall any from my experience with it 30+ years ago.

There’s also Te Guruma.

(Second video has no sound.)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We didn't cover those when I was training, but then I never got to anything like the whole curriculum. I don't recall ever seeing any of the upper belts working those.

When you use "under hook" to throw your opponent forward, if he resists, you can borrow his resistance, reverse your throwing direction, and change your forward throw into backward single leg or double legs. The under hook is very suitable for that combo switch (because your arms are under your opponent's arms and easier to reach to his leg/legs).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And even if you go to the knee, it's not with a lot of force. I played goalkeeper in soccer for 11 years, and rarely wore knee pads. It probably wasn't a good decision, but even kneeling on a rock never caused much of a distraction in the moment. As @drop bear might comment, the ground isn't lava.

It doesn’t have to be a lot of force, but I see a lot of guys who should know better dropping their knee down hard on a double leg. I tell my students that even on a padded mat there’s a long term toll involved with repeatedly smashing your knee down hard. Not only that, it makes the double-leg less effective because the impact goes down into the ground instead of forward into your opponent.

The trick is to drop your hips first as low as possible and then drive forward, rather than just dropping your knee straight down to the ground from a higher stance. Ideally your knee should just lightly touch and go on the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

dropping their knee down hard on a double leg.

My teacher always said, "Do you have any dignity to drop your knee/knees in front of your opponent during competition?"

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Oh, I almost forgot sushi nage:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh, I almost forgot sushi nage:

After one Chinese wrestling tournament that a girl's pants was ripped apart by this kind of pants grabbing, the pants grabbing is not allowed in Chinese wrestling.

IMO, in this situation, it's better to use both hands to grab his left leg instead.

At 0.17.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, I almost forgot sushi nage:

I love the autocorrect on that post, Tony. I'm now trying to figure out exactly what "sushi nage" would be.

I learned sukui nage years ago in my NGA training, but never had a name for it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

After one Chinese wrestling tournament that a girl's pants was ripped apart by this kind of pants grabbing, the pants grabbing is not allowed in Chinese wrestling.

IMO, in this situation, it's better to use both hands to grab his left leg instead.

At 0.17.

With one leg held, there's still contact to the ground. If they're flexible, they can hang on and maybe not get thrown. Of course, to get both legs, you have to expose yourself a bit more if you go from the front, but from the side (as in the video Tony posted), it's not much exposed. It limits the opportunities a bit as a trade-off for being less exposed.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I love the autocorrect on that post, Tony. I'm now trying to figure out exactly what "sushi nage" would be.

I learned sukui nage years ago in my NGA training, but never had a name for it.

Dammit. Didn’t even spot that one. My iPad keeps thinking it knows how to spell better than I do and comes up with some really oddball replacements. (Like Jiu Mitsubishi for jiu-jitsu.)

 

[dvcochran]

I don't know about wrestling history. The Chinese wrestling can be traced back to yellow emperor time period (2711 BC?)

This picture can be traced back to the Chin Dynasty (246 BC ~ 207 BC).

- The wrestling double legs drops knee down.
- The Kung Fu double legs does not.

- The wrestling single leg uses both hands to grab the leg.
- The Kung Fu single leg uses one hand to grab the leg, and use the other hand to push the upper body (neck, shoulder, head, ...).

Kung Fu is older by a quite a bit it looks like. Wrestling shoots are taught both single arm and double arm. When first learning I believe we were always taught to drop the knee down. But that changes with experience. Good post.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

With one leg held, there's still contact to the ground. If they're flexible, they can hang on and maybe not get thrown.

Not if you get under the knee first, reach to the ankle, step away, turn around, and lift the ankle over your shoulder.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not if you get under the knee first, reach to the ankle, step away, turn around, and lift the ankle over your shoulder.

As with most techniques, it has its advantages, when the technique can be applied properly. The other technique doesn't require the high lift, and actually opens opportunities for ground follow-ups and slams.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Not if you get under the knee first, reach to the ankle, step away, turn around, and lift the ankle over your shoulder.

I've worked a similar takedown but stepping to the outside as you elevate their leg, versus the inside of their leg. It allows for turning them away from you as they fall, so you can follow them to the ground and take their back to setup a submission. I quite liked it. Similar mechanics, different finish.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've worked a similar takedown but stepping to the outside as you elevate their leg, versus the inside of their leg. It allows for turning them away from you as they fall, so you can follow them to the ground and take their back to setup a submission. I quite liked it. Similar mechanics, different finish.

There's one in NGA that's taught initially (and often left there) as a kick defense, that is similar to what you describe. It'd be unlikely to work as a kick defense against a reasonably good kicker, but trains some reasonable options should you get under a leg somehow. Most places don't train any alternate entries, which is a shame. I need to dig that back up and dust it off before students get to that level.

 

[JR 137]

Those are variations of the single and double leg takedowns in wrestling. I am asking because I do not know, which came first Roman wrestling or Kung Fu? Hey @JR 137 , look familiar?

I was reading this from a while back and somehow never got around to replying...

Looks very familiar. A variation on the double leg takedown we often used. We called it the kamikaze double. We were taught to hit with our head rather than how they’re hitting with their shoulder. A few years later when I started coaching, they were using the shoulder like in the video. The shoulder is far better from an attacker’s safety perspective. Football eliminated “spearing” which is basically tackling by burying the top of your helmet into the guy, and our head wrestling coach carried that over to this - spearing is a great way to break your neck. Spearing in football was banned a year or two after I graduated.

Edit: the kamikaze double is a lot harder to pull off in wrestling due to the lower stance. It’s most effective when the opponent is nearly upright. With the stereotypical wrestling stance of the head and shoulders forward and bent at the waist, they’re not presenting a great target, hence the traditional double is used far more often. If given equal opportunity to use either one, I’d kamikaze double every time. I’d rather the opponent on his back.

 

[marques]

My mind was racing thinking about how many different takedowns there are in Judo. I love watching Judo videos. But the reality is, as I see it, you don't need to know that many. Piggybacking off the other post recently about practing one technique for a year or so, vs learning numerious techniques, what takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?

Let me use a body type example: A short muscular build with a low center of gravity. If you had to take someone built like that to the ground, what would be your go to move? Single or double leg? What particular judo takedown? Assume the opponent is shorter than you.

For Judo I was thinking the one (can't remember the name) where you move in fast, put your right foot in between his legs, move your foot in a circular motion (to the right) and keep moving forward to knock him down.

I would say single leg, even without much experience with it, because easy grip, good control and easy/ier transitions to something else when it fails.

Slim and light versus round and fat makes difficult any above waste grab (for me at least - and I would replace single leg for a low kick as well ).

Just a push with the right timing and direction(s) also makes an easy takedown, especially when you can mix it with surprise (not in a Judo match).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What are the most universal effective takedowns?

Since your hands are close to your opponent's upper body and your legs are close to your opponent's legs, the most effective take down is to let your hand to do your hand job and to let your leg to do your leg job. This way, both your hand and your leg only have to move a short distance. Also since your hands control your opponent's upper body, you will have less chance to be punched.

Since all leg skill require single leg balance, this may be difficult for beginners to do.

To deal with your opponent's body, if you land

- both feet on the ground, you have only 2 hands.
- 1 foot on the groung, you have 2 hands plus 1 leg.

In Chinese wrestling, this move is called "front cut (or diagonal cut)". In Judo, This move is called "large outer reap".