What are the most universal effective takedowns?

[Martial D]

My mind was racing thinking about how many different takedowns there are in Judo. I love watching Judo videos. But the reality is, as I see it, you don't need to know that many. Piggybacking off the other post recently about practing one technique for a year or so, vs learning numerious techniques, what takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?

Let me use a body type example: A short muscular build with a low center of gravity. If you had to take someone built like that to the ground, what would be your go to move? Single or double leg? What particular judo takedown? Assume the opponent is shorter than you.

For Judo I was thinking the one (can't remember the name) where you move in fast, put your right foot in between his legs, move your foot in a circular motion (to the right) and keep moving forward to knock him down.

My favourite takedown is a lead right uppercut, but a left cross will do in a pinch.

 

[TMA17]

My favourite takedown is a lead right uppercut, but a left cross will do in a pinch.

I've only ever punched someone in the face once, and that was when I was 15. I'm more of a passive/avoid confrontation person. I've always thought though without gloves it has to hurt like hell to punch someone in the face without gloves on. LOL

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The bigger problem is what JR is getting at: the Judoka won’t have the counters for several key wrestling takedowns.

Judo doesn’t allow leg takedowns anymore, and to be honest, I don’t think it was an often used thing anyway.

One thing that makes a significant difference is the jacket. When you have a good grip on your opponent's lapel that makes it a lot easier to stuff low line attacks (double and single legs) even when you have a more upright stance.

The upright stance is less effective for shooting low line attacks, but it's better for most other Judo throws (hip throws, foot sweeps, etc). Since the gi lessened the danger from low line shots (and now the new rules have completely eliminated those attacks), the upright stance makes more sense.

My personal take is that Wrestling focuses more on avoiding the takedown, and Judo focuses more on getting the takedown.

The biggest difference I saw was the pace. Wrestling was high pressure and make things happen, Judo was was more stand your ground and counter.

Both wrestling and Judo place a heavy emphasis on offense and have rules which penalize stalling. The difference is that the gi makes it much easier to slow down the movement and thwart attacks. That's why wrestling seems to have more continuous movement and action - the contestants don't have that convenient handle to hold each other in place. A lot of the anti-stalling rules in Judo are focused on the allowable grips, because with the right grips on the gi you can potentially stall for a long time.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Some takedowns are more "high percentage" than others, depending on the relative body type of you and your opponent.

But.... people will favor takedowns which land them in the particular position they want to fight from. Example: My coach, in competition, prefers to pass someone's guard or stack them, playing a top heavy submission strategy, so he WANTS them to pull guard. Therefore, he defends his own legs like a wrestler would, keeps strong grip to keep opponent from getting too close, preventing a single or double leg takedown and somewhat forcing the other guy to play a bottom guard game. One of his long term female students is super lanky / flexible; therefore her strategy is almost the polar opposite. Pull guard early, fight for sleeve grips, often finish with a triangle choke or working toward a back take and choke.

As a bigger (slower), older guy who never wrestled, my wrestling type takedowns are terrible. I did a bit of Judo so foot sweeps from standing are something I look for but don't count on. An explosive collar drag is something I really like in a BJJ context, really using your body weight and stepping off angle to jerk someone off their feet and to the mat. Depending on how they react, you can use it to get to a top position, or pull them into a closed guard and then work from there. As a relative BJJ beginner, I generally have no preference on using a guard from bottom, or trying to stay on top and attack, so I try both, but it seems like with time most people develop a preference for what position(s) they want to fight from, and that sort of dictates their takedown strategy.

 

[JR 137]

One thing that makes a significant difference is the jacket. When you have a good grip on your opponent's lapel that makes it a lot easier to stuff low line attacks (double and single legs) even when you have a more upright stance.

The upright stance is less effective for shooting low line attacks, but it's better for most other Judo throws (hip throws, foot sweeps, etc). Since the gi lessened the danger from low line shots (and now the new rules have completely eliminated those attacks), the upright stance makes more sense.




Both wrestling and Judo place a heavy emphasis on offense and have rules which penalize stalling. The difference is that the gi makes it much easier to slow down the movement and thwart attacks. That's why wrestling seems to have more continuous movement and action - the contestants don't have that convenient handle to hold each other in place. A lot of the anti-stalling rules in Judo are focused on the allowable grips, because with the right grips on the gi you can potentially stall for a long time.

I was going to say grabbing the jacket too, but I forgot.

I didn’t think about grabbing the jacket would stifle leg takedowns and add to the more upright posture, but it makes a ton of sense.

In my limited judo watching experience, I’ve only seen stalling called a couple times. I think wrestling is far quicker to call it, but the whole jacket grabbing makes sense. Once a wrestler is suspected of stalling or doing a technique that’s a known stalling hold, the referee will start counting and motioning with his arm. Like a basketball referee does when the ball is being brought up to half court. I’ve never seen a judo referee do that. I’m not sure how they determine stalling and if there’s an official count, but I imagine there is.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I was going to say grabbing the jacket too, but I forgot.

I didn’t think about grabbing the jacket would stifle leg takedowns and add to the more upright posture, but it makes a ton of sense.

In my limited judo watching experience, I’ve only seen stalling called a couple times. I think wrestling is far quicker to call it, but the whole jacket grabbing makes sense. Once a wrestler is suspected of stalling or doing a technique that’s a known stalling hold, the referee will start counting and motioning with his arm. Like a basketball referee does when the ball is being brought up to half court. I’ve never seen a judo referee do that. I’m not sure how they determine stalling and if there’s an official count, but I imagine there is.

I’m not very experienced in Judo competition, so I don’t know what sort of warnings a ref might give for stalling. I do have a book by an elite Judo competitor where he mentions that in high level competition matches can be decided by who can manipulate their opponent into accruing stalling penalties. That gets a bit more esoteric than what you will see in lower level competition, so I’m not sure exactly how it works.

 

[Martial D]

I've only ever punched someone in the face once, and that was when I was 15. I'm more of a passive/avoid confrontation person. I've always thought though without gloves it has to hurt like hell to punch someone in the face without gloves on. LOL

So wait, you've never sparred? You really should if you do any sort of striking art. It helps a lot.

Also, yes it's very easy to hurt your hand hitting skull with bare knuckles .

 

[JR 137]

I've only ever punched someone in the face once, and that was when I was 15. I'm more of a passive/avoid confrontation person. I've always thought though without gloves it has to hurt like hell to punch someone in the face without gloves on. LOL

Punching someone’s face doesn’t hurt as much as the rest of the head.

Adrenaline kicks in and you really don’t think about it until afterwards.

 

[TMA17]

So wait, you've never sparred? You really should if you do any sort of striking art. It helps a lot.

Also, yes it's very easy to hurt your hand hitting skull with bare knuckles .

Oh no I've sparred, but we had gloves on.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?

May be the question should be asked, "What is the universal effective set up?" Is there any universal set up that will work for all throws? The answer is yes.

When you have 1 grip on your opponent while your opponent has no grip on you, if your opponent tries to obtain his grip back, you can move in at that moment and "apply almost any throw that you are good at it".

In order to apply this strategy, you have to be good at

- tearing, to tear apart your opponent's grip, and
- circular dragging.

How to drag your opponent in circle and apply your throw when you have 1 grip but your opponent has no grip can be seen in this clip.

 

[Hanzou]

IMO, I think clench-based takedowns are extremely effective. That said, I think it generally depends on your body type and your general athletic ability. I think flying takedowns would mess someone up, but I can't do them to save my life.

Double Leg takedowns and Football tackles aimed at the legs have proven to be highly effective in various contexts.

I also like this takedown by Firas Zahabi, it reminds me of a spider-monkey.

 

[TMA17]

Nice thanks for sharing.

 

[Hanzou]

As I've said many times, one of the best things contemporary Bjj did was to keep an open mind to other grappling systems and allow those grappling systems to be merged and synthesized into a hybrid grappling system that is somehow STILL called Bjj.

I think the worst thing Judo did was to continuously attempt to purge ground grappling and wrestling from the sport instead of allowing the sport to evolve naturally. If you check out the old stories about Judo, one of the main things that leap out to you is how much Kano seems to have an outright distaste towards ground fighting or the idea of Judo turning into a form of western wrestling.

One theory that has been floating around is that leg locks were banned from Judo practice not because they were too dangerous, but because they were too effective against standing opponents. This reportedly screwed with Kano's vision of Judo as an art of standing throws. Considering their effectiveness, and the fact that Sambo, Bjj, and MMA all practice leg locks without too much issue, I'm inclined to believe that theory.

 

[Martialartsenthusiast]

Over the shoulder throw (seoi nage)
All trips are good,ouchi gari, osoto gari
Uchi Mata
Overall hip throws
Foot sweeps
Double and single leg takedowns
Soto makikomi and it's variations

Sacrifice throws like sumi gaeshi Also work very well has counters.

 

[O'Malley]

I was speaking philosophically. It accounts for the difference in stance, and the rules in Judo that penalize too much defense. You are correct they're basically approaching the same job, but with a slight difference in priority.


I think you're correct about Judo never having much in leg takedowns. I don't recall any from my experience with it 30+ years ago.

Is it possible that the stance thing has to do with the origins of both arts? From what I understand, lower stances reduce mobility compared to upright stances (they might also expose vital points?). Since the techniques of judo come from older styles that were used in armed encounters (on the battlefield and/or in civilian armed encounters) where one had to worry more about the weapon (not to mention multiple opponents) and less about the takedown, it might make sense that it has retained a higher stance. In comparison, wrestling has been used in a lot of cultures as a way to submit humans and cattle, often turning into a sport. Parameters such as weapons and multiple opponents did not influence wrestling as much as they influenced judo. An element that supports that theory is that in other forms of wrestling (and that had similar goals) such as sumo, the stance is lower than in judo.

Thoughts?

I think the worst thing Judo did was to continuously attempt to purge ground grappling and wrestling from the sport instead of allowing the sport to evolve naturally. If you check out the old stories about Judo, one of the main things that leap out to you is how much Kano seems to have an outright distaste towards ground fighting or the idea of Judo turning into a form of western wrestling.

I don't know about the leg locks issue (someone who knows about judo history might want to chime in) but the above quote is not true. Kano actually researched western wrestling and, when he saw something worthwhile, he tried to incorporate it as much as he could (for example, by inviting the best martial artists he could find to teach at the Kodokan or by sending some of his best students to study under famous masters). What's more, he already incorporated ground techniques into his judo when he conceived it but, when his judoka were defeated in shiai by Tanabe Mataemon of Fusen-ryu using ground-fighting, Kano allegedly asked Tanabe to teach ground-fighting at the Kodokan so that judo shifted towards a balance between standing and ground grappling. He also welcomed the desire of some of his students such as Oda Tsunetane or Yaichihyoue Kanemitsu to further develop ground fighting, which led to the invention of things like Kosen judo or the triangle choke (source: Ellis Amdur, Hidden in Plain Sight, revised edition). Some of the guys at the Kodokan had a strong focus on ground fighting, among which Mistuyo Maeda who later taught the Gracies.

The myth of Kano hating ground-fighting and wanting to "purge" it from judo does not hold up, because

1) he was the one to put it in judo in the first place;
2) he could have removed it anytime if he had wanted to;
3) when he saw that ground-fighting was effective, he added more of it to judo;
4) when his students further developed ground-fighting, he supported them.

One would not be making much of a stretch if one were to say that it was Kano's interest in the ground techniques of Fusen-ryu (and other koryu before them) that popularised them through judo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is it possible that the stance thing has to do with the origins of both arts? From what I understand, lower stances reduce mobility compared to upright stances (they might also expose vital points?). Since the techniques of judo come from older styles that were used in armed encounters (on the battlefield and/or in civilian armed encounters) where one had to worry more about the weapon (not to mention multiple opponents) and less about the takedown, it might make sense that it has retained a higher stance. In comparison, wrestling has been used in a lot of cultures as a way to submit humans and cattle, often turning into a sport. Parameters such as weapons and multiple opponents did not influence wrestling as much as they influenced judo. An element that supports that theory is that in other forms of wrestling (and that had similar goals) such as sumo, the stance is lower than in judo.

Thoughts?

That makes sense. There are a lot of factors that influence how a given art or style develops, and I could see those being strong influences in the stances adopted by Judo. And since Judo hasn't (at least for the last 40 years - the part of Judo history I'm vaguely aware of - beyond that I'm mostly clueless) done a lot of adopting material from outside, there wouldn't be a lot of reason for proponents to change the stances that are working for them.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I assume a knife introduced to the jugular doesnt constitute a take down in this context? Its pretty effective for the most part.


Also worth noting, it would be iffy to drop down if you dont have some softish material under your knees, just worth noting preservation of them for the leg takedowns.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Also worth noting, it would be iffy to drop down if you dont have some softish material under your knees, just worth noting preservation of them for the leg takedowns.

You generally only have to touch your knee to the ground for a double leg takedown when your opponent is crouched in a low wrestling stance. If he’s standing up throwing punches you don’t need to go that low.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think you're correct about Judo never having much in leg takedowns. I don't recall any from my experience with it 30+ years ago.

 

[dvcochran]

Those are variations of the single and double leg takedowns in wrestling. I am asking because I do not know, which came first Roman wrestling or Kung Fu? Hey @JR 137 , look familiar?