What are the differences between Ninjutsu families?

[Don Roley]

OK, then the error is on Hatsumi's side and not Bussey. Bussey was graded to a Yondan, if he was only there but a short time it was irresponsible to grade him as such.

It really was not a yondan. The story is bit complicated, but Bussey was being set up to have his ego bashed into the ground, and fled Japan instead. I do not think he has a certificate, just the knowledge that he had been ordered to take the godan test before he ran.

This story comes to me second had through a Japanese with a good reputation at one of the Daikomysai parties. Due to the amount of alchohol involved, there may be some errors, but it seems to fit the facts.

Oh, and what Tulisan said about the "semantics", I wish I had said it that simply. When we talk about what ninjutsu is in terms of how to approach combat, generate power, etc, then Tew ryu has about as much in common with the stuff in Japan as Wing Chun does. I am not saying it is better or worse, just different enough to cause a heck of a lot of confusion by using the same terms.

 

[r erman]

It really was not a yondan

Don,

Has Bussey received enough flack yet? The guy has been disassociated from the booj since 1987. Everyone knows what he does/did does not have the same flow and principles found in classical taijutsu--I think he knows it too and just found a ballisitic mode of movement that worked for him.

I've read interviews with Nagato where Bussey's rank was mentioned and he(Nagato) did not correct his yondan as a misconception--and everyone has heard of how tough Nagato's dojo was back in those days. I respect that more than what his dan rank was...

Dave,

As far as moving better than booj instructor's today, he is most likely a better fighter than some, but he doesn't move better in the sense of booj movement. There are so many principles involved with high level jujutsu/taijutsu that I've never seen in Bussey's stuff. But the man's an animal, no doubt.

Anyway, not trying to argue with anyone, but I wonder why so many people still obsess about Bussey and spread what is essentially second-hand information when the guy hasn't been officially involved in 'ninjutsu' since the late 80's.

 

[Don Roley]

Dave,

As far as moving better than booj instructor's today, he is most likely a better fighter than some, but he doesn't move better in the sense of booj movement. There are so many principles involved with high level jujutsu/taijutsu that I've never seen in Bussey's stuff. But the man's an animal, no doubt.

Let us leave it at that. I do not want to talk about whether Bussey is good or not, or how much experience he may or may not have had. The important thing is that the art that he came up with and put his name to has very, very little in common with the art known in Japan as ninjutsu. They both use punches, kicks, etc. But the end result is about as similar as tai chi and tae kwon do.

And if you want to talk about tai chi, you don't want to hear the comments of a tae kwon do student who suddenly calls his art "modern tai chi" because he just does not have anything in common. This is one of the problems we see when trying to deal with the issues of this forum.

 

[r erman]

And if you want to talk about tai chi, you don't want to hear the comments of a tae kwon do student who suddenly calls his art "modern tai chi" because he just does not have anything in common. This is one of the problems we see when trying to deal with the issues of this forum.

 

[Bujingodai]

I agree, I have little to do or say about Bussey. Just an opinion.
But only an opinion on second hand knowledge and video footage.

 

[sojobow]

"Racist" eh?
Ninjutsu is a Japanese term. There are references to it in Japanese history and you can find people in Japan practicing it

I don't want to insult, just point out the problems with contrasting what Tew says is ninjutsu and what every Japanese source says is ninjutsu.

Sensei Tew did not say what Nin Jutsu is. He speak only of Nin Jitsu. Two differenct animals. However;

Pardon me as I was just flying by. The Tengu will again vanish after this post until something of importance to all is mentioned or discussed. Most likely will now respond to replys to this post. Just a FYI.

Lord help us, but I "almost" totally agree with Don Roley.

Mr. Roley says: "Ninjutsu is a Japanese term. There are references to it in Japanese history and you can find people in Japan practicing it."

Sojobow says: Half truth, but more correct to say that "you can find people in Japan practicing what THEY THINK IT IS." (will explain more below so keep reading now). But the basic phrase is correct in that Ninjutsu is a Japanese term but borrowed from the Chinese.

Mr. Roley says: "So, I look at an art like Tew-ryu and I see very, very little in common with the what I see being called ninjutsu in Japan. I can look at any Japanese art like Yagyu Shingan ryu (which I have studied) and say that Tew ryu has nothing much in common with even a Japanese art let alone one called ninjutsu."

Sojobow says: Mr. Roley is absolutely correct. Tew Ryu has nothing much in common with this thing called "Ninjutsu." From what I can see, Sensei Tew teaches his form of American N i n j i t s u thus, Mr. Roley is correct again.

Mr. Roley says: "Has Rick Tew lied? Not that I can tell. Is what he does consistent with what the art known in Japan as ninjutsu is known as? Nope, not even a little."

Sojobow says: Mr. Roley is again, absolutely correct. What Sensei Tew teaches is unknown in Japan.

Mr. Roley says: "The problem is what do we talk about when we have so little in common. Rick Tew is a young, unproven martial artist with no experience with the Japanese art. "

Sojobow says: Mr. Roley may be correct again but I would venture to guess that Sensei Tew might know a lot more than Mr. Roley gives him credit for. He, Sensei Tew, is young and unproven in Japan but I'd really hate to see someone try him. Life is too short. (Interesting term: "Kan." The actual term taken (borrowed) from the Chinese in the development of the Japanese term: "Nin." But that (the blade over the heart and Kanji of Kan, Cho, Sankai is a subject for another flyby)

Mr. Roley says: "I would not stop him from teaching an art he created, but if this is a section of the Japanese section of Martialtalk, why should we be listening to a voice that has no tie to that country?

Sojobow says: AND HEREIN/THEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM.

Mr. Roley is absolutely correct again. The owners of this Forum (as well as others such as BudoSeek) either do not know and understand that there are others in the world of martial arts that study something called "Ninjitsu," or these Forum owners do not consider any existance of anything not "Kan," or, these owners lump all practitioner's of the Stealer-ins as a Japanese Artform. I would think that, at least, these owners would have a section set aside for "Ninjitsu" under another group heading not Japanese. The current systems on these Forums breed martial arts bigotry and other prejudices as well as limit dialogue. (REFERENCE TO CERTAIN SCIENCES AND NOT A REFERENCE TO SOME CONTINENT.)

(Why is it that the Kogas know what and how the Kans/X-Kans do what they do, but not the other way around? Why listen???? Why not!!!!!)

Again, Mr. Roley is absolutely correct. Only Kans/X-Kans are welcomed here and other Forums like this one. Enson will not be welcomed here. Sojobow was not and will never be welcome here, those not born of the Bujinkan will not be welcome here. All Bujinkans having an outstanding balance due, will not be welcomed here so you guys had better keep you cards updated and dues paid.

Mr. Roley says:"....the subject matter as it is taught and known in the country where it takes it name from. "

Sojobow says: As promised above by my statement: ""you can find people in Japan practicing what THEY THINK IT IS."", I find it perplexing that the Kans/X-Kans seem to not know the differences in being taught the Art of the Iga and of the Koga versus the Art of the Samurai. The art of the Iga and the Koga DID NOT INCLUDE THE "16 ARTS OF THE SAMURAI." The Bansensuki of the Koga is different compared to the Bansensuki of the Iga therefore, the two systems of Iga and Koga are different. One would have to be able to read Kanbun as the language of writtings of Koga and Iga is not "Japanese" but are actually in a bastardized Chinese language. Koga difinately had no "16 Arts of the Samurai."

I could be wrong. But I don't seem to recall that The Bansensuki includes references to most of the "16 Samurai Arts." I do see the references to the "16 Arts of Ninjutsu" within the Kan, however, I have never noted any Kan student discussing the arts of explosives, poisons, Kuji-In, Astrology, Espionage, Psyops, Black Arts, Black-Ops, Religeons, Philosophy, Sex, etc. (Note: Do you also practice the Religeons of Buddhism and Shinto? If not, what Ninjutsu family do you proclaim?) This is also the reason there is no living individual having attained the original rank of Shihan. The Kan/X-Kan of today do not take the same test for Rank above 4th Dan as those under the Sokeships prior to Hatsumi Sensei thus, the Ninjutsu as taught in Japan today is not what was passed to Hatsumi. But, to me, it doesn't matter. All of you above 3rd Dan are ok with me. Just wanted to let you know that some of the Koga Ryu-ha know. We also know why you do not welcome those not of your Ryu-ha. Truth will somehow devulge itself if free-speach is left unrestricted.

Item Last (no reply necessary): I have seen the earliest Sword of the Samurai dating long before the Heian Period. I have also seen the earliest known sword of the practitioners of Koga and Iga. Both were black and both have straight blades. The "Blade Over the Heart" depicts a straight blade.

Have the Moderator delete this post before too many open minded warriors think on its contents.

Smoke!!!!!!!

 

[Don Roley]

Sensei Tew did not say what Nin Jutsu is. He speak only of Nin Jitsu. Two differenct animals.

Does anyone take this type of stuff with any sort of seriousness? If no one does, I am not going to bother wasting time trying to correct all the mistakes and such in it and get back to my drinking. Sojobow can just disapear again and we can try to have serious conversations.

But Sojobow makes an interesting observation that if the title of this forum is "ninjutsu" then maybe "ninjitsu" folks are posting in the wrong forum.

 

[Jay Bell]

(as well as others such as BudoSeek)

Ehhh...not so much. But I refuse to entertain your little middle-school-brat fantasies.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Brief comment, more later in a different thread.

===

Mr. Roley is absolutely correct again. The owners of this Forum (as well as others such as BudoSeek) either do not know and understand that there are others in the world of martial arts that study something called "Ninjitsu," or these Forum owners do not consider any existance of anything not "Kan," or, these owners lump all practitioner's of the Stealer-ins as a Japanese Artform. I would think that, at least, these owners would have a section set aside for "Ninjitsu" under another group heading not Japanese. The current systems on these Forums breed martial arts bigotry and other prejudices as well as limit dialogue. (REFERENCE TO CERTAIN SCIENCES AND NOT A REFERENCE TO SOME CONTINENT.)

(Why is it that the Kogas know what and how the Kans/X-Kans do what they do, but not the other way around? Why listen???? Why not!!!!!)

Again, Mr. Roley is absolutely correct. Only Kans/X-Kans are welcomed here and other Forums like this one. Enson will not be welcomed here. Sojobow was not and will never be welcome here, those not born of the Bujinkan will not be welcome here. All Bujinkans having an outstanding balance due, will not be welcomed here so you guys had better keep you cards updated and dues paid.

But Sojobow makes an interesting observation that if the title of this forum is "ninjutsu" then maybe "ninjitsu" folks are posting in the wrong forum.

This is being worked on. I have been discussing this issue with several individuals, and are working on a clarification. When I named this forum, my own understanding of this was quite lacking (Still is, but I know a bit more now, heh). I am working to develop a FAQ for this area to specifically address many of the concerns that have been recently brought to our and my attention. I will be seeking the help of our expert members to help fill that faq. More info shortly.

:asian:

 

[shiro]

It is my understanding the term NinJutsu and NinJitsu is a on going problem and.
Jutsu(means art,waza) Jitsu(means fruit). It was a traslation problem a long time ago and it just has never been fixed. Public opinion is hard to change.

 

[Genin Andrew]

"Ninjitsu" is just an alternative spelling to "ninjutsu" that some people/organizations use to make their art different from ninjutsu because they have no legitimate ninjustu background and think by spelling their art "ninjitsu" they wont have any problems explaining the difference between the two...but we who know better obviously know that the "ninjitsu" spelling is pretty much crap.Ninjutsu is made of a series of english letters to represent the japanese characters for ninjutsu,it is only a translation but for those who are more literate than others know that it is correctly spelt "ninjutsu" as it is closer to the correct pronounciation.

Don feel free to correct me so far i will gladly stand corrected.

Now on the topic of this being a "Japanese forum" and a specific Ninjutsu forum (which it most certainly is) and the comments about anyone outside of the Bujinkan,Genbukan or Jinenkan in not really welcome to post here?..hmmm ok here i go...

I study/practice Ninjukai Taijutsu and i understand that it is not recognised as a legitimate ninja art by many if any outside the organization itself and, i respect that fully.However i am 17 yrs old,I studied karate before ninjukai and have an enthusiastic interest in japanese arts and history.I POST HERE AND READ HERE TO LEARN. I have read many books on ninjutsu and japanese history and have a growing knowledge and have learnt alot also through posting and recieving comments in this forum.

I have ambitions to join the Bujinkan in Brisbane when i transfer over there next year (i'm joining the army) So i post here out of my great interest of ninjutsu to build on my knowledge and learn more about the art not only for liesure and personal interest reasons but also to improve my background knowledge of the art i will begin to study early next year.

I understand exactly what you're saying Don and i respect all of it and you are someone with great knowledge whom we can learn a great deal from,that is what i am here for to LEARN and understand from those who Know and where i can i also offer advice out of the knowledge i have gained over the years.

I have gained alot from my time here on martial talk and am sure i will learn much more in the future.The knowledge i have now i apply to my taijutsu and what i am yet to gain i will also apply to my taijutsu and i look forward to my years to come in the Bujinkan.I am one of those people who are "big on history" and feel it is an important part to understanding and appreciating your art and understanding the roots and traditions will help you in your development and future training.

"The heart of taijutsu is important and only through training will one polish that heart (like a gem) and understand true taijutsu." -Toshitsugu Takamatsu

much respect
-andrew

 

[shiro]

Yes could you give me more info on ninjukai?
I have never heared of it.
The people in the Bujinkan state that those who won the wars wrote history(true)
Then there must be a possiblity of some small pockets of ninjutsu not conected to the Bujinkan. I just saying never say never. So check them out ,That is why I am asking.
Thanks

 

[Enson]

I study/practice Ninjukai Taijutsu and i understand that it is not recognised as a legitimate ninja art by many if any outside the organization itself and, i respect that fully...

I have ambitions to join the Bujinkan in Brisbane when i transfer over there next year (i'm joining the army) ...
-andrew

why do you feel the need to be recognized by a bunch of people you don't know? you are bit younger than me so i will tell you this: when i was 17 yrs. (not that long ago) i too felt the need to fit in to something bigger and what i felt more important. i'm not telling you to not join the bujinkan but you seemed like you loved your ninjukai taijutsu training. the questions to you is... do you believe in your art/style? do you think it is a well rounded style? do you believe it can be effective in self defense? do you respect your instructor above all others? (meaning... do you believe what he says even though some tell you different?) do you believe that there is still much more to learn in your style/art?
remember that once you train bujinkan you are not supposed to cross train. so in reality you shouldn't go back to ninjukai. but, if you love you art/style... then stick with it. perfect it. show the world that no matter what they say about your art's legitimacy (spelling) that it works and is effective. don't feel the need to change to keep up with the "jones." remember that these people on here like, don, dale, ralph, shiro, gmunoz, etc. have built a relationship with their style over time. you are too young to get married but when you do you will learn that no matter what anyone says about your spouse... she is yours forever. your love will blind you to any negatives she might have, and in your eyes she will be the best wife in the universe. the same with your style. if you love your style... stick with it and don't just change to fit in. these are just my thoughts.
peace

 

[DuckofDeath]

Jitsu(means fruit).

By their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[Genin Andrew]

why do you feel the need to be recognized by a bunch of people you don't know? you are bit younger than me so i will tell you this: when i was 17 yrs. (not that long ago) i too felt the need to fit in to something bigger and what i felt more important. i'm not telling you to not join the bujinkan but you seemed like you loved your ninjukai taijutsu training. the questions to you is... do you believe in your art/style? do you think it is a well rounded style? do you believe it can be effective in self defense? do you respect your instructor above all others? (meaning... do you believe what he says even though some tell you different?) do you believe that there is still much more to learn in your style/art?
remember that once you train bujinkan you are not supposed to cross train. so in reality you shouldn't go back to ninjukai. but, if you love you art/style... then stick with it. perfect it. show the world that no matter what they say about your art's legitimacy (spelling) that it works and is effective. don't feel the need to change to keep up with the "jones." remember that these people on here like, don, dale, ralph, shiro, gmunoz, etc. have built a relationship with their style over time. you are too young to get married but when you do you will learn that no matter what anyone says about your spouse... she is yours forever. your love will blind you to any negatives she might have, and in your eyes she will be the best wife in the universe. the same with your style. if you love your style... stick with it and don't just change to fit in. these are just my thoughts.
peace

No its not that i am joining the bujinkan to be "recognised".I will be over in the eastern states next year and Ninjukai only exists in western australia,Over in places like brisbane where i will be there are quite a few Bujinkan Dojos.I love ninjukai its a great art and very effective,and i have great respect for everyone there.The marriage thing was a good example Enson but its a little different,its just simply i'm changing locations,and i need to make a few sacrifices and change my style.Thanks for the post though.

and to SHIRO.When dealing with history and the Ninja its almost impossible to understand without approaching it with an open mind.The Togakure-ryu which Toshitsugu Takamatsu passed down to Masaaki Hatsumi who exposed it to SKH is understood socially and historically as being the Ninjutsu which was born and practiced in the IGA Region.The Koga region however is said by a few to have lasted through the life and days of Fujita Seiko who tragically died and never passed on his knowledge.But This is not incredibly well known and Fujito Seiko and his ninjutsu is a very controversial and debated topic.

So basically it all boils down to the Togakure-Ryu being the only legitimate style of ninjutsu that is backed with living and historical evidence and is recognised by Japan as being a traditional Ninja art.

Now even though the Koga and Iga regions were said to both operate together at times and the styles were very similiar i think its a little foolish to state that the Ninjutsu taught today by the Bujinkan is and was the only Traditional martial art of the ninja.Unfortunately though there is no other historic evidence that has any mention of the many of the "ninja" styles practiced today.

But personally i'm sure there is others,maybe only 1 or 2,and i also think that many styles and variations of ninjutsu died with its practitioners long ago.But i will never be one to say that Bujinkan Ninjutsu was the only tradition that survived,i think that is quite untrue but thats just my personal belief.

So we continue to condemn and brand other arts as being "frauds".And yes there are some frauds out there who make very ridiculous claims but i'm not gonne be one to point the finger.Because history has been very interwined with many stories of fact and legend,and i am still unsure of what to believe today.But i obviously believe in the Bujinkan,Genbukan and Jinenkan because they have the evidence and lineage to prove that they are legit,but personally i also believe in Ninjukai because i have practiced it,been told about it,and have seen it in action.That is my belief,and dont wish to convince anyone else....

Keep an open mind...but not too open that you are blinded and sucked in by fairytales and false claims.

much respect
-andrew

 

[shiro]

Where and Who are You going to try to study with. Mr. Hoban is on the Eastern side.
Good Luck

 

[Genin Andrew]

Yeh theres Jack Hoban,Duncan Mitchell,Geoff Smith and Gillian Booth.There is also the Australian Ninjutsu Academy headed by Michael Tattoli.

 

[Don Roley]

So we continue to condemn and brand other arts as being "frauds".And yes there are some frauds out there who make very ridiculous claims but i'm not gonne be one to point the finger.Because history has been very interwined with many stories of fact and legend,and i am still unsure of what to believe today.

History and Japanese claims can be very confusing- especially if you do not speak the language and can't tell the difference between the Edo period and the Nara period.

But here are two things that you should always look for.

1- sources in Japan that know about the art and a link to Japan by the people making the claims. It just does not happen that an art can be taught outside the country of its origin and not be known at all in it.

2- the highest ranking person or the one who introduced the art is able to show complete proof that he actually had training from a real teacher. And all claims he makes about his own experiences check out.

Both these should be provable independently by people outside the orginization. No secrets that can be discussed on line but not shown to anyone outside the ryu, no conspiracy theories, etc.

If we accept these simple guidelines we eliminate Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Konigun, Saito ryu, Mikeba-ryu, etc. No need to understand 14th century politics or anythign that complicated. Simply ask if the highest person can prove his claims of training and is there any source in Japan that knows about them. If not, they are not worth talking about.

And if anyone knows of another school outside of the Takamatsu den in Japan, please let me know. I have taken a lot of time and effort to learn about other arts as I can. It would be nice to learn about another ninjutsu style I can compare the Togakure ryu with. But they don't seem to exist in Japan- only overseas. Imagine that!
:uhyeah: