What are the differences between Ninjutsu families?

[Cryozombie]

now that is my opinion and i'm sticking to it
peace

Enson... thats fine. And Tew teaching what he teaches is fine...

From "our" perspective... well... lets look at it from some other arts perspective...

If Tew (Or Dux, or Saito anyone else for that matter, who cares...) claims that they are teaching "Ed Parker Kempo" but from a different "branch" of ed parker kempo...

Well, fine... but would you honestly expect them to get respect from the Ed Parker people? No Clearly not.

Now, granted Ninjutsu is not so clear cut, but there is a large amount of "historical" evidence to suggest certain things... like for example, Iga/Koga ninjutsu/jitsu is not okinawan in origin, so a school that teaches a "ninjutsu techniques" that appear to be Okinawan Karate but claim to be Koga in origin send up a red flag...

But beyond the "fraud" stuff... which I really don't care about except where it effects the opinion of the public at large regarding the legitimacy of MY art... just because someone chooses to call their art Ninjutsu/jitsu... doesnt mean that it actually is.

Does it matter? Nope. Not in the least... But will it generate the same kind of respect from the people who percieve their name was stolen? Nope.

 

[Enson]

i totally agree with you techo. i think if someone chooses to practice an art they should call it that art. not just because they want to use a mask and through joint damaging punches in the air all day long. i do feel that what tew does is very respectful and good. now i won't be here defending my sensei all day long because honestly there is no point. people could talk down hatsumi, hayes, bussey, tew, and anyone else if they want to. thats there write for having internet i guess. so it doesn't benefit anyone to try and defend all day long... that doesn't solve anything. like i mentioned before. if you believe your art is superior... then it works for you. if you don't go find one you think is. i enjoy my art and i never had pump rebook. (i have issues)

 

[Cruentus]

IMHO...people can call whatever they do, whatever they want.

I only have problems when people lie about their backgrounds, or purposely mislead. Lying happends all the time, in all martial arts, unfortunatily.

Yours,

Bill Clinton

 

[Cryozombie]

i totally agree with you techo. i think if someone chooses to practice an art they should call it that art. not just because they want to use a mask and through joint damaging punches in the air all day long. i do feel that what tew does is very respectful and good. now i won't be here defending my sensei all day long because honestly there is no point. people could talk down hatsumi, hayes, bussey, tew, and anyone else if they want to. thats there write for having internet i guess. so it doesn't benefit anyone to try and defend all day long... that doesn't solve anything. like i mentioned before. if you believe your art is superior... then it works for you. if you don't go find one you think is. i enjoy my art and i never had pump rebook. (i have issues)

Enson... the only "Superior Art" is the one that gets you home safe against your opponent, know what I am sayin? Like I said, the reason I don't have a problem with Tew-ryu is that they dont claim to be the supersecret decendants of a lost Bakemono who fell to earth and created a magic ring... so no need to defend him...

One suggestion however... Tell him to sell his Tshirt style Gi tops without his school logo on em! Id wear one to training if it didnt have his school logo on it... they are fly uniforms. :boing2:

 

[Enson]

Enson... the only "Superior Art" is the one that gets you home safe against your opponent, know what I am sayin? Like I said, the reason I don't have a problem with Tew-ryu is that they dont claim to be the supersecret decendants of a lost Bakemono who fell to earth and created a magic ring... so no need to defend him...

One suggestion however... Tell him to sell his Tshirt style Gi tops without his school logo on em! Id wear one to training if it didnt have his school logo on it... they are fly uniforms. :boing2:

true that on the one that gets you home!
anyway you can buy his uniforms without the logo.
www.martialartsupply.com
pro ninja uniform.
peace

 

[Cryozombie]

true that on the one that gets you home!
anyway you can buy his uniforms without the logo.
www.martialartsupply.com
pro ninja uniform.
peace

Nah... see... I like the short-sleeve Vneck pullover top that is in the "Martial Science" uniform... not the goofy ninja suit...

 

[Don Roley]

so i think you guys should try and help the rest and not be so "racist" against any other style proclaiming ninjutsu/ninjitsu as their art.

"Racist" eh?

I may have to rethink a recent letter I wrote.

Ok, let me state this quite clearly.

Ninjutsu is a Japanese term. There are references to it in Japanese history and you can find people in Japan practicing it.

Certain arts have certain charecteristics. Wing Chung, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, etc, all these arts are not the same and approach the art of combat very differently. If someone tried to say that they were teaching Brazilian Jujtsu but they looked like karate people would have problems. It is not a matter of which is better, but a fact of the charecteristics of the art.

So, I look at an art like Tew-ryu and I see very, very little in common with the what I see being called ninjutsu in Japan. I can look at any Japanese art like Yagyu Shingan ryu (which I have studied) and say that Tew ryu has nothing much in common with even a Japanese art let alone one called ninjutsu.

Has Rick Tew lied? Not that I can tell. Is what he does consistent with what the art known in Japan as ninjutsu is known as? Nope, not even a little.

The problem is what do we talk about when we have so little in common. Rick Tew is a young, unproven martial artist with no experience with the Japanese art. I dare say that I have had more training and more real life experience than he ever will. I would not stop him from teaching an art he created, but if this is a section of the Japanese section of Martialtalk, why should we be listening to a voice that has no tie to that country? Consider the fact that Ashida Kim has the same amount of time in Japan and under a legitimate instructor of a Japanese ninjutsu tradition and you see the problem. Tew has not lied AFAIK, but he has not shown a great amount of expertise or knowlege of the subject matter as it is taught and known in the country where it takes it name from.

I don't want to insult, just point out the problems with contrasting what Tew says is ninjutsu and what every Japanese source says is ninjutsu.

 

[Enson]

"Racist" eh?

I may have to rethink a recent letter I wrote.

Ok, let me state this quite clearly.

Ninjutsu is a Japanese term. There are references to it in Japanese history and you can find people in Japan practicing it.

Certain arts have certain charecteristics. Wing Chung, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, etc, all these arts are not the same and approach the art of combat very differently. If someone tried to say that they were teaching Brazilian Jujtsu but they looked like karate people would have problems. It is not a matter of which is better, but a fact of the charecteristics of the art.

So, I look at an art like Tew-ryu and I see very, very little in common with the what I see being called ninjutsu in Japan. I can look at any Japanese art like Yagyu Shingan ryu (which I have studied) and say that Tew ryu has nothing much in common with even a Japanese art let alone one called ninjutsu.

Has Rick Tew lied? Not that I can tell. Is what he does consistent with what the art known in Japan as ninjutsu is known as? Nope, not even a little.

The problem is what do we talk about when we have so little in common. Rick Tew is a young, unproven martial artist with no experience with the Japanese art. I dare say that I have had more training and more real life experience than he ever will. I would not stop him from teaching an art he created, but if this is a section of the Japanese section of Martialtalk, why should we be listening to a voice that has no tie to that country? Consider the fact that Ashida Kim has the same amount of time in Japan and under a legitimate instructor of a Japanese ninjutsu tradition and you see the problem. Tew has not lied AFAIK, but he has not shown a great amount of expertise or knowlege of the subject matter as it is taught and known in the country where it takes it name from.

I don't want to insult, just point out the problems with contrasting what Tew says is ninjutsu and what every Japanese source says is ninjutsu.

well you make very good points and i too have thought of such things. but you see tew doesn't say he is historicly accurate. nor does he make claims to teach anything similar to buji. in fact he prefers the style to be called "r.t.m.s." so that there is no cunfusion. in his and my opinion he has taken a concept that he had learned and enhanced it. now i know that to you and many many others that doesn't seem like the case. but you take john pellegrini... he has taken hapkido and enhanced it to his likes. he even titled it "combat hapkido" hapkido as you know is known for its high kicks and difficult forms. does this mean he can no longer use the word hapkido? nope. but he does acknowledge that his style is different from "traditional" hapkido. do we have to change the name of "american football" because we took a concept and tweeked it to our likes? nope. its just what we do. that is why sensei tew calls it american modern ninjutsu. the point i tried to make earlier don (apart from your japanese expertise) is that you should not look down on someone else for what he practices. the proof is in the doing. just be supportive of the new guys and stop stalking the ones that aren't in buji. if they are historicily inaccurate with information they are trying to put out... correct it but not in a condesending way. no one will doubt here that you and dale know your stuff. let us know ours and help where you feel we need it. i will leave you with two quotes for the day:
"an open hand travels faster than a closed fist, so is the same with the mind"
rick tew
"no one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care."
john c. maxwell
peace

 

[Enson]

Nah... see... I like the short-sleeve Vneck pullover top that is in the "Martial Science" uniform... not the goofy ninja suit...

the ninja suit comes with the vneck pull over. kinda of expensive though. hee hee! thats why i don't have one yet! lol!
peace

 

[Cruentus]

What is Tew's training background?

Paul

 

[Enson]

What is Tew's training background?

Paul

you can find it on another post i made.
peace

 

[Cruentus]

you can find it on another post i made.
peace

Ah...sorry for not paying attention.

He trained with Dux first...then Bussey.

Bussey (although he is not there anymore) was with Bujinkan and broke off.

So...I guess Tew can call what he does ninjitsu, IMHO. I mean...who cares? If he is not lying about his background, (and at least Bussey had a ninjitsu background), then fine. He is not claiming to teach what is offered in the kans, from what I can see. So, it all comes down to what you have to offer, I think. If what he has to offer is not as good as one of the Kans, then people will go to one of the Kans for something more authentic. If he makes his students happy (as long as he isn't lying or running a cult) then good for him.

Just what I think. This is coming from the view of someone who is outside of any "politics" of course.

:asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

So...I guess Tew can call what he does ninjitsu, IMHO. I

I get Don's post tho... think about it... if you studied under a TKD guy who called his art "American Brazillian Ju Jutsu" and went into a BJJ forum, and started talking about the Chung Mu forms... or the Double spinning back kicks... they would probably ask you what kind of Hash your Instructor was smoking... regardless of how good he was.

I guess maybe I don't understand why you would want to use the name of one art for another art... In the professional and buisness world no one would argue the low ethics of that... If I opened "Disneeland Amusment Parks" with Mikey Mouse as my spokesman or "MacDonalds" Fast Food with the Golden Arc... well...

It's a moot point anyhow... but I get what Don was saying.

 

[Cruentus]

Yes, I understand what he is saying, but I guess I am a bit more liberal.

To me, I thought "ninjitsu" is a generic for a particular Japanese martial art, regardless of school.

Now, if you can't trace your roots to anything Japanese or Ninjitsu, then yes, it would be unethical to have that name.

However...Bussey's roots are Bujinkan, and Tew learned from Bussey. Therefore, in my liberal mind, it would seem that he could call what he does ninjitsu if he wanted too.

Now, it is clear that if your discussing technical stuff, with Tew Ryu and Bujinkan it will be an apple/orange discussion. However, because the lineage of at least some of what he does seems to fit into the very broad category of ninjitsu, it seems that it would still be o.k. to call it that? Am I wrong?

Don't mind if I am...just looking to understand. :asian:

 

[Don Roley]

However...Bussey's roots are Bujinkan, and Tew learned from Bussey. Therefore, in my liberal mind, it would seem that he could call what he does ninjitsu if he wanted too.

The thing is, Bussey only stayed around the Bujinkan long enough to have his piture snapped with Hatsumi and then basically created his own style of ninjutsu based mainly on the Korean art he had such a strong background in. What Tew learned from him was nothing like what is taught in Japan.


Enson menioned, "john pellegrini... he has taken hapkido and enhanced it to his likes." But the fact is Pellegrinin started out in authentic Hapkido and what he does is still very close to the way Hapkido does things. The way they generate power, combat strategies, etc. People like Tew have not.

The way things are done in Japan and called "ninjutsu" and the way I see Tew do his stuff is as different as night and day. Many Bujinkan teachers have not picked up on certain concepts, but if I talked to them about kuzushi, ichi- no- tachi, nagare, kyojitsu tenkan-ho (the real definition and not the commonly accepted mistaken translation), etc, they would be able to see what I was talking about by looking at Hatsumi and paying attention while training with him. Tew does not have these important concepts as part of his art.

If Tew used his R.T.M.S. name, and not the ninjutsu name, no problem. What is R.T.M.S.? Anything Rick Tew wants it to mean. But by posting in a ninjutsu forum as if you were the same as the styles that can be found in Japan, you start to cause confusion. It is not a matter of which is better, but rather a question of what do we have in common to talk about. I noticed that in a post about speed or power there were some posts by newbies in the Bujinkan that did not show a great deal of knowledge, but Enson's post showed that his outlook was quite different. If it was in the general forum, no problem. But if you are talking about the way ninjutsu would deal with a problem, then we really all need to be working off the same sheet of music.

 

[Enson]

But if you are talking about the way ninjutsu would deal with a problem, then we really all need to be working off the same sheet of music.

its funny how you mention music roley. are you a muscian? i imagine you aren't because you would know that even though its a different style of saxaphone you still read the same music. same progressions, same note structure. but yet you have mulitple styles of saxaphones. saprano, alto, tener, etc. (even the clarinet is similar) so i practice a different style of ninjutsu. is it going to change the price of beer? no then what should it matter? you have nothing in common with me? then don't respond to what i post. if it is a question for just bujinkan members then state it before you post. like the post about the instructors book. just calm it down and play nice. now i think enough said... you?

 

[Cruentus]

The thing is, Bussey only stayed around the Bujinkan long enough to have his piture snapped with Hatsumi and then basically created his own style of ninjutsu based mainly on the Korean art he had such a strong background in. What Tew learned from him was nothing like what is taught in Japan.

Ahh. Well, that makes sense then; I stand corrected. I thought Bussey had more of a background. But if it is as you say (and I have no reason to not believe you), then I agree. Tew has a legitimacy problem, and should probably call his art something other then Ninjitsu.

IMHO.

 

[Cruentus]

its funny how you mention music roley. are you a muscian? i imagine you aren't because you would know that even though its a different style of saxaphone you still read the same music. same progressions, same note structure. but yet you have mulitple styles of saxaphones. saprano, alto, tener, etc. (even the clarinet is similar) so i practice a different style of ninjutsu. is it going to change the price of beer? no then what should it matter? you have nothing in common with me? then don't respond to what i post. if it is a question for just bujinkan members then state it before you post. like the post about the instructors book. just calm it down and play nice. now i think enough said... you?

Well...all fighting styles have similarities across the board. We all have a head, torso, 2 arms and 2 legs. We all move, biologically the same. If someone had 4 legs or 3 arms...well, then maybe we would find more diversity in movement. So...conceptually, yes, it is all the same.

But, stylistically, the semantics are different. I'll apply this to myself. If I am in a Modern Arnis forum talking about 6-count drill, and someone from San Miguel eskrima starts explaining his interpretation of things when his count drills don't even resemble modern arnis 6-count, then we have a semantics problem. This would be like me giving you my input on your Latin, when I only speak Spanish.

So...I can see what Don is saying. This does not mean that you shouldn't have an opinion, but it does mean that you'd better know that what you are doing is not "authentic" ninjitsu, so your semantics may be entirely different.

O.K....I'll shut up now!

:asian:

 

[Bujingodai]

I take issue then with the comment about Bussey only sticking around to get his pic.

OK, then the error is on Hatsumi's side and not Bussey. Bussey was graded to a Yondan, if he was only there but a short time it was irresponsible to grade him as such. I would state that one should have a pretty good grip of what the art is about at Yondan, again this could be a QA issue. I have seen Bussey on tapes only...he doesn't look bad, moves better than many of the exisiting and liscenced Bujinkan instructors today.

As for Tew, he is pretty flashy and not much of what I have seen footage wise is very "ninjutsuish" However if I was to make a promo VCD I'd be putting the more exciting stuff on it too. To his credit I'd love to move that well overall, and it looks like an interesting program if I had the bucks. Many Many bucks so it seems.

Dux, well. I am an indie, I have a mandate in the org I belong to, to contact and meet etc as many schools as I can to form a legit physical opinion. I have contacted him, his people and such..Have never had a response. I just wanted to see for myself. So I have no opinion. He shut me out :miffer: I mean even Ashida responded to me, LOL. Mind you that was one meeting I bowed out of. But it would have been worth it to meet the man.

 

[Shogun]

Even if it doesnt seem very "ninja", I got o give it to Tew that he is fun "tew" watch. Kinda like Taido.

good stuff. to watch....ah you get it.