What are some fighting methods that you simply cannot ethically pressure test in the ring, which can only be proven "doing it live"?

[drop bear]

The craw?

Not the craw.

The craw.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It sounds like we're in agreement. I've taken and taught those courses for as long as I can remember.
But until you actually try in the field for the first few times, you can't be sure how well it's going to work.

Sometimes you can. The hospital had a really silly self defense course they made us take. One of the things they taught was that if someone grabs your collar or throat or such from the front, you're supposed to raise your arms and rotate. Nope. Sorry. I'm not turning my back on the person who is attacking me.

In one of the classes, the instructor asked for a volunteer so they could show us what to do if someone tries to kick us. I volunteered right away. He said throw a kick. So I did. A roundhouse to his head. He then explained that he meant me to throw a kick at his shin. I cannot remember anybody in the ER trying to kick me in the shin, ever. Not even once.

In another, the instructor asked for a volunteer so they could show us what to if someone did the classic headlock from behind sort of thing. I again quickly volunteered. I asked them specifically how hard they wanted me to squeeze. "Do it like you mean it." OK. So I stepped up and put an RNC in place. He started to say "First, drop your chin down so you can breathe..." but was out before he finished the sentence. He was expecting the forearm across the throat air choke sort of thing. He was cool about it though. He said "That just shows that none of what we're showing you is 100% going to work."

No matter how you try to create the same atmosphere in the dojo, the stress level, surroundings and individual craziness of the other party, only exist in the field.

I'm just glad they work most times.

No technique is 100%. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. That's one reason why it's a great idea to learn as many options as you can.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I disagree. In my counseling degree (in the classroom, not the bogus SD course actual jobs made us take), a large part of it was learning how to de-escalate, and general verbal skills. Involved a lot of learning, a lot of social science, and then a lot of role-playing. And it surprised me when I got in the field how effective it was, and how little experience I actually needed to make it work.

I think the issue is just that most dojo instructors (and a lot of instructors in LE-related fields) don't understand/never learned the science of it, and as a result don't actually know how to teach it. While they might be able to do it from experience, that'd be the same as a 'street-fighter' trying to teach fighting without ever having actual training, just going by experience. They can try, but there are gaps there.

True--only been to one dojo where this was emphasized across the spectrum.

It's not much of a starter, either.

Oh, if you do it with surprise, speed, violence of action, and technique, thumb and fingers wrapped around the trachea--it is an extraordinarily uncomfortable experience. The pressure test of just the fingers closing around it is not fun, then add in grasping it like you're catching yourself falling.

 

[drop bear]

True--only been to one dojo where this was emphasized across the spectrum.

Oh, if you do it with surprise, speed, violence of action, and technique, thumb and fingers wrapped around the trachea--it is an extraordinarily uncomfortable experience. The pressure test of just the fingers closing around it is not fun, then add in grasping it like you're catching yourself falling.

Yeah. I found it pretty effective. But then I also grab with a bent arm in a very collar tie fashion. Which is a lot harder to dislodge

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Yeah. I found it pretty effective. But then I also grab with a bent arm in a very collar tie fashion. Which is a lot harder to dislodge

Well, unless you injure the trachea, it's more of a transitional move.

 

[drop bear]

Well, unless you injure the trachea, it's more of a transitional move.

You do. But you also cut of the carotid if you go deep enough.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

You do. But you also cut of the carotid if you go deep enough.

You're not trying to get them to go to sleep. You use it primarily for momentary pain compliance, to get control of them otherwise. It just hurts far more, than a pressure point.

 

[drop bear]

You're not trying to get them to go to sleep. You use it primarily for momentary pain compliance, to get control of them otherwise. It just hurts far more, than a pressure point.

If I can make someone collapse from it. I will.

 

[skribs]

No technique is 100%. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. That's one reason why it's a great idea to learn as many options as you can.

Not even the Death Star was 100%. That was a planet killer and it lost both times.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Stuff like trach chokes and sap work. The only way to learn is through experience, or from someone that did it, or someone they trained.

Any technique can be applied once. But stacking up dead ukes like cordwood is frowned upon, so shooting and stabbing typically not on.

More seriously, I would say techniques designed to damage or destroy joints would typically not be tested with full power during training.

In the military, we practiced garrote, knife fighting, and bayonet drills, but we armored up for safety. Even the Marines frown on killing training partners.

 

[skribs]

This is a little bit different from what the OP is asking, but one thing that often gets overlooked in self-defense is what I call the "Two Surprise Rule" (name is a work in progress). In self-defense, there are two potential points in which one fighter experiences a surprise:

1. When the assailant ambushes the victim, the victim is surprised
2. When the victim fights back, the assailant is surprised

This is something that is virtually impossible to pressure test, because in the ring or in a drill you know something is coming, and you know the other person is going to fight back. You would be on red alert during the entire test, which is an inaccurate condition for the test.

You could try and loosen the conditions a bit. Tell the victim that he will be jumped at some point in the next week. Then he'll be on yellow or red alert for the next week. Or tell the assailant to attack five different victims, who have been instructed to provide various levels of resistance. But he'll prepare to be countered every time, something that not every bully or mugger will in real life.

This is where it does get unethical: for a truly realistic experience, don't tell people they're going to be attacked. Just go up to random people and attack them, and see how well they respond to the initial surprise, and see how well their response works if they fight back. Oh, that runs back into the same problem above - if you're thinking about people fighting back, you're more ready for it, and less surprised when it happens. Sort of like the difference between the first time you saw a movie trope and the tenth time you've seen it, you know what's going to happen.

 

[drop bear]

This is a little bit different from what the OP is asking, but one thing that often gets overlooked in self-defense is what I call the "Two Surprise Rule" (name is a work in progress). In self-defense, there are two potential points in which one fighter experiences a surprise:

1. When the assailant ambushes the victim, the victim is surprised
2. When the victim fights back, the assailant is surprised

This is something that is virtually impossible to pressure test, because in the ring or in a drill you know something is coming, and you know the other person is going to fight back. You would be on red alert during the entire test, which is an inaccurate condition for the test.

You could try and loosen the conditions a bit. Tell the victim that he will be jumped at some point in the next week. Then he'll be on yellow or red alert for the next week. Or tell the assailant to attack five different victims, who have been instructed to provide various levels of resistance. But he'll prepare to be countered every time, something that not every bully or mugger will in real life.

This is where it does get unethical: for a truly realistic experience, don't tell people they're going to be attacked. Just go up to random people and attack them, and see how well they respond to the initial surprise, and see how well their response works if they fight back. Oh, that runs back into the same problem above - if you're thinking about people fighting back, you're more ready for it, and less surprised when it happens. Sort of like the difference between the first time you saw a movie trope and the tenth time you've seen it, you know what's going to happen.

There was a group that did that. Jumped you and stuffed you in to the back of a car.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is a little bit different from what the OP is asking, but one thing that often gets overlooked in self-defense is what I call the "Two Surprise Rule" (name is a work in progress). In self-defense, there are two potential points in which one fighter experiences a surprise:

1. When the assailant ambushes the victim, the victim is surprised
2. When the victim fights back, the assailant is surprised

This is something that is virtually impossible to pressure test, because in the ring or in a drill you know something is coming, and you know the other person is going to fight back. You would be on red alert during the entire test, which is an inaccurate condition for the test.

You could try and loosen the conditions a bit. Tell the victim that he will be jumped at some point in the next week. Then he'll be on yellow or red alert for the next week. Or tell the assailant to attack five different victims, who have been instructed to provide various levels of resistance. But he'll prepare to be countered every time, something that not every bully or mugger will in real life.

This is where it does get unethical: for a truly realistic experience, don't tell people they're going to be attacked. Just go up to random people and attack them, and see how well they respond to the initial surprise, and see how well their response works if they fight back. Oh, that runs back into the same problem above - if you're thinking about people fighting back, you're more ready for it, and less surprised when it happens. Sort of like the difference between the first time you saw a movie trope and the tenth time you've seen it, you know what's going to happen.

Sounds like Inspector Clouseau and Kato!

 

[skribs]

Sounds like Inspector Clouseau and Kato!

Even then, he knows to be on red alert.

Come to think of it, that may be part of his reasoning.

 

[JRMFFL531]

I think many small joint locks fall into this category. I’ve seen them result in breaks when people decided to resist in the middle of drills, so would never really try to put them on in a competitive situation. I’m just not willing to break something on an opponent.

How about finger jabs?! Can you imagine sparring with someone and they constantly use the finger jab?!

 

[drop bear]

How about finger jabs?! Can you imagine sparring with someone and they constantly use the finger jab?!

You could use head gear.

Personally I think a good boxer would murder 90% of your finger jab specialists under those conditions.

They spend hours doing the perfect finger. But then do every other part of striking wrong.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You could use head gear.

Personally I think a good boxer would murder 90% of your finger jab specialists under those conditions.

They spend hours doing the perfect finger. But then do every other part of striking wrong.

Except maybe Jon Jones. He seems to do both quite well…

 

[Xue Sheng]

Believe It or not, I don't recommend trying to use Cai (called pull, actually yank) from taijiquan 13 postures in the ring. And it is hard to even train properly, it does damage. Also Shàn tōng bèi (fan though the back) one application will break an arm, but you can train this easily. There are others, but most will not believe anything in taijiquan can be used to cause damage...so I will leave it at that

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Believe It or not, I don't recommend trying to use Cai (called pull, actually yank) from taijiquan 13 postures in the ring. And it is hard to even train properly, it does damage. Also Shàn tōng bèi (fan though the back) one application will break an arm, but you can train this easily. There are others, but most will not believe anything in taijiquan can be used to cause damage...so I will leave it at that

I believe it, and diagonal flying, and play the guitar, and snake creeps down, I will add those and leave it at that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How about finger jabs?! Can you imagine sparring with someone and they constantly use the finger jab?!

What are you jabbing at? If you mean eyes, that’s obviously problematic. You can still practice developing the background skills- most of which come from light sparring.