America was stunned: having Bill Clinton sign a "Defense of Marriage Act" is a lot like having Teddy Kennedy teach lifesaving.....:lfao:
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- Thread starter MSTCNC
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America was stunned: having Bill Clinton sign a "Defense of Marriage Act" is a lot like having Teddy Kennedy teach lifesaving.....:lfao:
oftheherd1
Senior Master
How amazing that everyone wants to jump all over the Bible and prove it is so wrong. Or maybe not. It doesn't say what a lot of people want it to say so they can be comfortable.
Well, rather than try to refute every contrary statement here by numerous people, I will just tell all that I will believe what I want. I am not responsible for anyone else's belief, only my own. I have stated my beliefs. You all are free to have your own beliefs. I stated my beliefs were from my upbringing and the Bible. I have stated before I believe in the King James Version (translation). There are other versions. All are free to choose the Bible version (translation) they wish to believe in. I have made my choice. It might be interesting to note that even Wescott and Hort had no problem translating the Greek to say sex between men or sex between women was wrong.
I did not state that anyone else was required to agree with my beliefs, nor that I intended to require anyone to adhere to my beliefs. Yet here we are on page five of this thread, and probably half or more of the posts are attacking the Bible. Not believing the Bible, is again, the prerogative of each individual. I have yet to attack anyone else's beliefs. I could, but would that help you change your beliefs? I would rather simply talk about what the Bible says and what I believe. Then others can make choices to believe or not believe as they decide.
But I wonder why nobody has commented on the rest of my post?
Oh well.
Well, rather than try to refute every contrary statement here by numerous people, I will just tell all that I will believe what I want. I am not responsible for anyone else's belief, only my own. I have stated my beliefs. You all are free to have your own beliefs. I stated my beliefs were from my upbringing and the Bible. I have stated before I believe in the King James Version (translation). There are other versions. All are free to choose the Bible version (translation) they wish to believe in. I have made my choice. It might be interesting to note that even Wescott and Hort had no problem translating the Greek to say sex between men or sex between women was wrong.
I did not state that anyone else was required to agree with my beliefs, nor that I intended to require anyone to adhere to my beliefs. Yet here we are on page five of this thread, and probably half or more of the posts are attacking the Bible. Not believing the Bible, is again, the prerogative of each individual. I have yet to attack anyone else's beliefs. I could, but would that help you change your beliefs? I would rather simply talk about what the Bible says and what I believe. Then others can make choices to believe or not believe as they decide.
But I wonder why nobody has commented on the rest of my post?
Oh well.
Because the KJV is full of errors-in translation, prose and data-especially in this regard. That's a fact.
What you choose to believe, and call "the truth," is entirely up to you. No one, least of all me, has attacked your "beliefs," only the specious document on which you've chosen to base them.
"The rest of your post?" Hardly relevant-I mean, it sounds sort of like...., I dunno: "I've got lots of black friends." to me....:lfao:
I worry so much that to cite biblical passages in support of this thing and that thing within our Judeo-Christian centric societies is to miss or be wilfully ignorant of the whole point of the Bible? goodness I am so tired of this sometimes.. it is just not good enough to READ the Bible (or the Torah or Qur'an or whichever) and then come out on the streets with guns loaded looking for witches and heretics.. If you subscribe to a faith then when you read your holy text with the heart of openness to receive the WHOLEword of God in the manner in which it is intended -WHETHER IT SUITS YOU OR NOT!- then you will put away your guns and your disapproving faces and concentrate on your own failings and leave everyone else to theirs.. People are NOT gay or straight or black, white, asian, male female it is all so stupid people are just people why am I so naive to think this is the only important thing? There is NO danger to anyone in this same sex marriage and there is no offence to anyone except that which is actively sought by them.. and people like to seek their offence, why is this? pffft..
Gosh, Jenna-that sounds awful spiritual.:asian:
Kind of misses one of the essential points of religion, though: telling everyone else what to do. :lfao:
to read an holy text with a mind to who next door is doing what 'wrong' is to read the word of God with a closed heart and is to receive nothing.. then to worship with a closed heart is to satisfy nothing but ones dogmatic humanness.. good for those that seek to ban marriage between ANY who consent to it pffft.. it shows a commitment to never transcending this mundanity, that is fine what do I care and yes what do I know.. still I am saying these people it would be better instead to close up that holy text they are reading while looking disapprovingly through their curtains that holy text with such beautiful words of enlightenment and go next door use it to beat them with and maybe they will learn not to be gay next door to you again.. pffft.. I am weary of holy text cherrypicking.. and worse.. an whole system of jurisprudence and government based upon divisive misinterpretations? this amendment is based upon fear and ignorance. spiritual whatever I am the stupid one x
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
or AA classes?
WC_lun
Senior Master
Historically we have not left the matter of civil rights up to the majority. As you have pointed out, in too many cases the majority vote from a place of ignorance. Allowing a person's civil rights to be left up to the ignorant makes no sense. For these type of laws to be changed they must go through the lower courts then make it to the higher courts. Courts that do NOT want to hear these cases because of popular pressure. These laws must eventually be changed to be in line with other civil rights and seperation of state laws. However, it will be slow going until bias on the basis of ignorance is not the rule of law.
oftheherd1, it must be nice to be so sure. For thousands of years, the one line in Leviticus has been read and debated, in the original Hebrew, so as to get the true meaning, and yet it is still not clear exactly what 'man lying with a man as with a woman' exactly means. Furthermore, there is nothing in Mishna expeanding on this. So we are left with only the literal meaning. Most likely refering to sodomy. Anything else is OK. Torah does not say homosexuality is wrong, merely that this one act is wrong. Just don't put blind faith in a bad translation.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Please enlighten me. Which translation is not "... full of errors-in translation, prose and data-especially in this regard." And fact? There indeed being a lot of contradictory information, it would seem you only designate as fact, that which you choose to believe. You have that right, but not to determine what is fact and what is not for me. I believe what I say to be fact, and I can give you my reasons. But my beliefs are based on my faith more than any "fact" you or I can bring forth.
If you strongly attack the basis of my beliefs, and only when I mention it, how do you say you are not attacking me? And "specious?" Saying that about the Bible does you no credit sir.
Perhaps I don't correctly understand your meaning, emoticon or not. If I did not state my stance well, just let me know. But I take that as insulting. Shame on you sir!
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Yes, it is nice to be so sure. As to the meaning of "man lying with a man as with a woman." Maybe I am wrong not to analyze to death as you have told me Jews are wont to do with all scripture (I'm sure that may be fun in a way). But I can't imagine God would say two men simply occupying the same bed, absent any sexual connotations, would be a sin, or even describe it that as being "as with a woman." You or anyone else is free to understand it as you wish. As far as putting blind faith in a bad translation? You see, I don't believe the KJV is a bad translation. Again, you or anyone else is free to have your own beliefs.
It likey meant sodomy. that is fairly clear. What is not there is averything else, including the idea that being a homosexual is a sin per say.
"Thou shall not kill"
Bad translation right there. The Hebrew reads "No murder"
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
That has nothing to do with believes. That is linguistic and a fact.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Bob last time i checked we dont base our laws off of other countries. So im not sure your point unless your infavor of the new wprld order one law for the world no country is allowed to decide for itself.
You all keep brining up the bible as if thats the only reason this bill was passed. Fact is everyone has a vote and the people voted its there choice it does not matter if the bible told them to do it Rush told them to do it the mail man or the muppets eveeyone gets a vote and they are free to vote however they want and nobody needs to explain why. If we ever get to vote for it here ill vote no just to piss off the Governor. Since he decided he knows whats best for my state and never allowed us to vote. Ill also vote.no to punish him for wanting to raise our gas tax to the highest in the nation ill vote no for everything he is for. Its my vote im allowed.to use.it as i.see.fit. Truthfully i could give two craps about who get married to who.
There is all this talk about people pushing their beliefs on others well that goes both ways. Here the minority pushed its belief onto the majority. In NC and 40 other states they said no to gay marriage. The federal govt also said no to gay marriage in 96. It is what it is you dont like it do a better job getting the message out there to change peoples minds but simply attacking them and telling them what your opinion of the bible is will not change anyones mind.
You all keep brining up the bible as if thats the only reason this bill was passed. Fact is everyone has a vote and the people voted its there choice it does not matter if the bible told them to do it Rush told them to do it the mail man or the muppets eveeyone gets a vote and they are free to vote however they want and nobody needs to explain why. If we ever get to vote for it here ill vote no just to piss off the Governor. Since he decided he knows whats best for my state and never allowed us to vote. Ill also vote.no to punish him for wanting to raise our gas tax to the highest in the nation ill vote no for everything he is for. Its my vote im allowed.to use.it as i.see.fit. Truthfully i could give two craps about who get married to who.
There is all this talk about people pushing their beliefs on others well that goes both ways. Here the minority pushed its belief onto the majority. In NC and 40 other states they said no to gay marriage. The federal govt also said no to gay marriage in 96. It is what it is you dont like it do a better job getting the message out there to change peoples minds but simply attacking them and telling them what your opinion of the bible is will not change anyones mind.
We don't do it for fun. We study and analyze because the text has many meanings and it is a living document.
Reading the KJV and thinking you understand the message is like translating a Russian Cliffs notes and thinking you understand 'War and Peace'
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Funny the only people i see using the bible are the pro gay marriage to show how the people against it are wrong. Ive seen obe person even bring religion up as a reason not to vote for it and 5 people bring it up as a reason why you can vote for it. My fav part is when someone say i dont believe in the bible but look what the bible says lol.......
Or your bible is wrong but my bible is right and it says this........
Who cares people are free to vote however they want for whatever reason. So put out a valid argument as to why gay marriage should be allowed. And saying your biblebis wrong so na na na boo boo is not a valid argument.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
You have not been to the right places.
I see that a lot around here, people pointing fingers at that other (protestant) denomination (not even going into the 'do you Catholics believe in Jesus' story) is reading the wrong bible etc...
And yes, it is religion and bible based when the preacher exclaims from the pulpit the bitty about 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' with more or less fervor in the voice.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Maybe your right we never really had the debate here. It was just passed with no concern about what people wanted. Im also in one of the leftist left states.
