Langenschwert
Master Black Belt
Just a tiny error in my post: the author of HS 3227a mentions the Leichmeisters on page TWO of the longsword section, not page one. 
Best regards,
-Mark
Best regards,
-Mark
Weapons and proper instruction - WHY?
- Thread starter Flying Crane
- Start date
And just think of all the damage a properly trained practioner could do with that stethoscope your avatar has across his neck. Then ...imagine that it's been chilled!
wrc619
Yellow Belt
Any person with weapon skills can always learn improvements from a more experienced mentor. In the USN, whether or not you grew up around firearms, you go through a course of training and fire to demonstarte expertise before being aloowed to use said firearm. I have learned some good pointers, even though I was well taught through various civilian shooting programs. Also, our baton is used very much like a short stick is. I was always smart enough to use a club as a blunt trauma instrument. With training, I can now use it effectively as a precision(ish) trauma instrument.
ridler2012
White Belt
Yep. A good teacher makes all the difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ItAm-vIGg&feature=related
Thanks for sharing... It's fun to learn if there's a video to keep it more interesting...
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jarrod
Senior Master
this is a very good & well thought out post, however i'm going to be the first devil's advocate here.
i think it depends largely on 1) the weapon/style in question 2) the purpose of training, & 3) the experience level of the martial artist.
1) the principles of engery transfer are essentially the same. if you train any style that has taught you how to throw a solid punch, you can probably figure out how to do it with say a 2 foot stick. if you can punch quickly & accurately you can probably get along with a knife. obviously some of the more complicated weapons you mentioned (meteor hammer, chain whip) aren't really safe to practice undirected.
2) is your goal self-defense, fun, or what? how serious is your goal?
i'll use myself as an example, since i recently posted a thread asking for dvd recommendations on la canne (french stick fighting). i'm interested in practical stick-fighting, yet i don't really plan to carry a cane around with me on a day to day basis. so i'm essentially training for fun. as long as i don't hurt myself or a training partner, i'm just fine. which brings us to...
3) i've been doing martial arts for 15 years now. i have good control, knowledge of body mechanics (i.e., can feel if i'm putting myself out of position, over-using certian muscles, etc.) & a feel for what works & what doesn't. so when i'm able, i fully intend to pick up some la canne dvds, protective gear, & start exchanging whacks with a willing training partner. this is vastly different from someone with no knowledge of martial arts buying a three sectional staff & some panther videos & going nuts.
like i said, good post, i just wanted to throw out some thoughts.
jf
i think it depends largely on 1) the weapon/style in question 2) the purpose of training, & 3) the experience level of the martial artist.
1) the principles of engery transfer are essentially the same. if you train any style that has taught you how to throw a solid punch, you can probably figure out how to do it with say a 2 foot stick. if you can punch quickly & accurately you can probably get along with a knife. obviously some of the more complicated weapons you mentioned (meteor hammer, chain whip) aren't really safe to practice undirected.
2) is your goal self-defense, fun, or what? how serious is your goal?
i'll use myself as an example, since i recently posted a thread asking for dvd recommendations on la canne (french stick fighting). i'm interested in practical stick-fighting, yet i don't really plan to carry a cane around with me on a day to day basis. so i'm essentially training for fun. as long as i don't hurt myself or a training partner, i'm just fine. which brings us to...
3) i've been doing martial arts for 15 years now. i have good control, knowledge of body mechanics (i.e., can feel if i'm putting myself out of position, over-using certian muscles, etc.) & a feel for what works & what doesn't. so when i'm able, i fully intend to pick up some la canne dvds, protective gear, & start exchanging whacks with a willing training partner
. this is vastly different from someone with no knowledge of martial arts buying a three sectional staff & some panther videos & going nuts.like i said, good post, i just wanted to throw out some thoughts.
jf
Thems Fighting Words
Green Belt
As G-d is my witness I met a teacher who demands that his black belts toddle down to the police station to register their hands as deadly weapons. There must be prosecutors and personal injury lawyers who wake up with enormous erections when they hear about him
Didn't realize lawyers had enormous genetalia.
Good points. Some weapons are much more intuitive than others.
tellner
Senior Master
Many lawyers are enormous genitalia.
chinto
Senior Master
If you're planning on using one for self defense then for the love of Cthulhu find a teacher who knows a little bit about the legal aspects of deadly force in self defense. The stupidity I've heard from martial arts teachers on the subject beggars description.
As G-d is my witness I met a teacher who demands that his black belts toddle down to the police station to register their hands as deadly weapons. There must be prosecutors and personal injury lawyers who wake up with enormous erections when they hear about him
Are you in OREGON then? I can tell you that no state in the union... THE United States Of America has any law or even way to 'register hands' as Deadly Weapons!! that is just ridiculous and i would tell my instructor so if he were to say something like that.
I know that most police departments do try to keep an idea of who the higher ranked ( brown belt and equivalent rank and higher) martial artists in their aria are when they can... but this myth of registering hands is just stupid.
tellner
Senior Master
Of course it's ridiculous. I'm not sure whether the instructor is ignorant or just wants his students to feel like T3|-| D34Dl33Z. Besides, if the police in good-sized city tried to keep tabs on all the brown- and black-belts they'd have to get together a budget and spend a lot of time keeping track of six year olds in the local McDojos.
A black belt is not a law degree. I wish more martial arts teachers understood this.
BULL!
Maybe a very small town PD with only a few dojos or training halls in the town... But otherwise, the cops have a bit more to do than try to figure out who's what rank in what martial art. And, even then, I doubt it.
I could maybe see a cop who happened to be a martial artist having an idea about others around... but that's no different than a cop who's into motorcycles knowing who else rides.
Then there's the whole issue of which "advanced martial artists" are even worth caring about... Every kiddie black belt? Only adults? What about a sports oriented school vs reality based? Or... how about skilled boxers and wrestlers? I guess we should be monitoring all the high school wrestling teams, too?
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While I've never had an instructor that was irresponsible with use of force, I would not go to an MA instructor for legal advice anymore than I would go to them for a latte. I didn't join a school to learn about the law, I joined a school to learn how to fight.
Many folks spend several thousand dollars over time on their training, but will not make a brief consultation with a qualified defense attorney with an interest in personal protection issues to learn how to reduce their risk of running afoul with the law. Its cheap insurance for whatever lies ahead of us.
Many folks spend several thousand dollars over time on their training, but will not make a brief consultation with a qualified defense attorney with an interest in personal protection issues to learn how to reduce their risk of running afoul with the law. Its cheap insurance for whatever lies ahead of us.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Honestly, use of force really isn't THAT hard, legally. Follow what I call the "four pillars" (opportunity, Imminent Jeopardy, Ability, Preclusion) and make sure you pass the "Reasonable Man" sniff test and you're good.
Here's the relevant section from the rec.martial-arts Newbies Guide to Self Defense:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/c632a7a01463227c?dmode=source
Subject: 10 - Deadly Force and the Force Continuum
In the words of Jim Keating:
As noted above, it's canonical that there are four elements of
legitimate Self Defense.
Ability:
This is the physical capability to kill or seriously injure.
Sometimes this means a weapon such as a knife, club, or gun. It can
also mean "Disparity of Force." Disparity of Force in this context is
when there is a large enough difference between the attacker and the
attacked that raw physical capability alone is enough to be recognized
as Deadly Force. The typical examples are a group attack, though
unarmed, against a single individual, or the proverbial attack by a
300 pound enraged linebacker against a 90 year old fragile boned
grandmother.
Opportunity:
Opportunity is similar to Ability, in that it reflects a raw ability
to inflict grievous harm. However, Opportunity is more often linked
to physical proximity. If the attacker is not within range to perform
the attack then there is no threat. An attacker with a knife 30 feet
away is no attacker at all. On the other hand, an attacker with a
firearm 30 feet away is most certainly within range to inflict bodily
harm. An attacker must have the "Opportunity" to use his "Ability"
for the attack to be credible.
Imminent Jeopardy:
This means that the threat is immediate and that a "Reasonable Man"
would believe, based on what information is available at the time,
that the aggressor's intent is to cause severe physical harm or death.
Threats by the aggressor of some future attack do not satisfy Imminent
Jeopardy while threats or actions that indicate an immediate intention
do.
Preclusion:
This means that all other options preceding Deadly Force were either
exhausted or were not viable. Some places have a Duty to Retreat law
or legal precedent. Essentially these address the same issue.
Legally and morally the individual must reasonably eliminate all other
methods to stop an attack before resorting to Deadly Force. This does
not mean that the individual must first "try, fail, discard, and then
try another" to eliminate all other option. Many options are
eliminated by immediacy of the threat. As an example, one simply does
not have time to call the police and report a burglar when an
aggressor is in the process of pounding you into jelly.
[The Force Continuum]
The Force Continuum is a concept of escalating Force responses to
match the level of threat or appropriate response. The primary
audience for the Force Continuum is Law Enforcement, Security, or
others who may have to respond to complex force justification
situations. Its application to civilian Self Defense in our ever
more litigious society is somewhat obvious.
The Force Continuum is generally represented by six "levels" with non-
verbal "presence" on one end of the scale and lethal responses at the
other end.
Level 1: Presence
Hostile (or criminal) activity is deterred simply by being seen.
Criminals usually don't want witnesses and may cease simply by being
observed. This may be facilitated by adopting an "Authoritative" or
"Assertive," but not aggressive, posture or bearing.
Level 2: Verbal Commands
Assertive, well selected, commands to "stop" or "move away" can
sometimes be sufficient though Verbal Commands can range up through
shouting. Presence and Verbal Commands are most often used in
conjunction with each other and, together, offer the lowest level of
"force" response possible. The Verbal Commands level is also the
appropriate level to attempt verbal de-escalation.
Level 3: Restraint
This level includes holds, locks, controls, and restraint devices such
as "come-along" holds, "submission" holds, and hand-cuffs. Sometimes
this level is referred to as "Soft Hands" meaning that the hands are
not formed as fists for the purpose of striking to cause permanent
damage.
Level 4: Non-Lethal Weapons
This level is meant to include devices that are generally considered
"non-lethal" such as pepper spray, and other chemical agents, and
electronic stun devices.
Level 5: Impact Weapons
Sometimes called "Hard Hands" to imply the use of fists to inflict
more serious, but not necessarily lethal, injury, this level is
intended to represent temporary physical incapacitation. It includes
use of impact weapons such as batons and fists with the goal of
"injuring to stop" but not killing. For most Law Enforcement this
means that high vulnerability targets such as the head are off limits.
Arms, legs, joints, and nerves and "pressure points" are generally the
targets of choice.
Level 6: Deadly Force
This level is universally known as "Deadly Force." As the name
indicates, it includes all methods generally accepted to be deadly.
This includes firearms, knives, and blunt instruments targeted at the
head. This level may also legally include choke holds inclusive of
both "strangulation" chokes as well as the infamous "sleeper"
blood-choke.
The intention of the Force Continuum is to lay out an escalation of
force appropriate to the situation. To quote one Internet author:
"'Never shoot what you can baton; never baton what you can spray;
never spray what you can punch; never punch what you can walk away
from.' Less is best."
-Sly, _The psychology of self defense and the force continuum_
Sometimes it can be difficult to know where you are at on the Force
Continuum, to understand what level of response is appropriate.
Again, let me quote, this time from North Carolina Wesleyan College
chart intended for Law Enforcement Officers:
THE CONTINUUM OF FORCE
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Suspect's Resistance Level: | Officer's Level: |
| 1. Suspect presence | 1. Interview stance |
| 2. Verbal resistance | 2. Verbal commands |
| 3. Passive resistance | 3. Passive techniques (handcuffs) |
| 4. Defensive resistance | 4. Chemical agents |
| 5. Active physical resistance | 5. Physical tactics/impact weapons|
| 6. Firearms/deadly force | 6. Firearms/deadly force |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/205/205lect03.htm
Peace favor your sword,Kirk
Here's the relevant section from the rec.martial-arts Newbies Guide to Self Defense:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/c632a7a01463227c?dmode=source
Subject: 10 - Deadly Force and the Force Continuum
In the words of Jim Keating:
"To have a defensible self-defense case you need several
factors in your favor. They are simple and they must be
present or you are going to jail for a long time. These
factors are this:
factors in your favor. They are simple and they must be
present or you are going to jail for a long time. These
factors are this:
* Opportunity
* Imminent Jeopardy
* Ability
* Preclusion
* Imminent Jeopardy
* Ability
* Preclusion
Leave out one or more of these factors and you lose. Have
these aspects present and provable and it's much more likely
that you'll win."
[Elements of Legitimate Self Defense]these aspects present and provable and it's much more likely
that you'll win."
As noted above, it's canonical that there are four elements of
legitimate Self Defense.
Ability:
This is the physical capability to kill or seriously injure.
Sometimes this means a weapon such as a knife, club, or gun. It can
also mean "Disparity of Force." Disparity of Force in this context is
when there is a large enough difference between the attacker and the
attacked that raw physical capability alone is enough to be recognized
as Deadly Force. The typical examples are a group attack, though
unarmed, against a single individual, or the proverbial attack by a
300 pound enraged linebacker against a 90 year old fragile boned
grandmother.
Opportunity:
Opportunity is similar to Ability, in that it reflects a raw ability
to inflict grievous harm. However, Opportunity is more often linked
to physical proximity. If the attacker is not within range to perform
the attack then there is no threat. An attacker with a knife 30 feet
away is no attacker at all. On the other hand, an attacker with a
firearm 30 feet away is most certainly within range to inflict bodily
harm. An attacker must have the "Opportunity" to use his "Ability"
for the attack to be credible.
Imminent Jeopardy:
This means that the threat is immediate and that a "Reasonable Man"
would believe, based on what information is available at the time,
that the aggressor's intent is to cause severe physical harm or death.
Threats by the aggressor of some future attack do not satisfy Imminent
Jeopardy while threats or actions that indicate an immediate intention
do.
Preclusion:
This means that all other options preceding Deadly Force were either
exhausted or were not viable. Some places have a Duty to Retreat law
or legal precedent. Essentially these address the same issue.
Legally and morally the individual must reasonably eliminate all other
methods to stop an attack before resorting to Deadly Force. This does
not mean that the individual must first "try, fail, discard, and then
try another" to eliminate all other option. Many options are
eliminated by immediacy of the threat. As an example, one simply does
not have time to call the police and report a burglar when an
aggressor is in the process of pounding you into jelly.
[The Force Continuum]
The Force Continuum is a concept of escalating Force responses to
match the level of threat or appropriate response. The primary
audience for the Force Continuum is Law Enforcement, Security, or
others who may have to respond to complex force justification
situations. Its application to civilian Self Defense in our ever
more litigious society is somewhat obvious.
The Force Continuum is generally represented by six "levels" with non-
verbal "presence" on one end of the scale and lethal responses at the
other end.
Level 1: Presence
Hostile (or criminal) activity is deterred simply by being seen.
Criminals usually don't want witnesses and may cease simply by being
observed. This may be facilitated by adopting an "Authoritative" or
"Assertive," but not aggressive, posture or bearing.
Level 2: Verbal Commands
Assertive, well selected, commands to "stop" or "move away" can
sometimes be sufficient though Verbal Commands can range up through
shouting. Presence and Verbal Commands are most often used in
conjunction with each other and, together, offer the lowest level of
"force" response possible. The Verbal Commands level is also the
appropriate level to attempt verbal de-escalation.
Level 3: Restraint
This level includes holds, locks, controls, and restraint devices such
as "come-along" holds, "submission" holds, and hand-cuffs. Sometimes
this level is referred to as "Soft Hands" meaning that the hands are
not formed as fists for the purpose of striking to cause permanent
damage.
Level 4: Non-Lethal Weapons
This level is meant to include devices that are generally considered
"non-lethal" such as pepper spray, and other chemical agents, and
electronic stun devices.
Level 5: Impact Weapons
Sometimes called "Hard Hands" to imply the use of fists to inflict
more serious, but not necessarily lethal, injury, this level is
intended to represent temporary physical incapacitation. It includes
use of impact weapons such as batons and fists with the goal of
"injuring to stop" but not killing. For most Law Enforcement this
means that high vulnerability targets such as the head are off limits.
Arms, legs, joints, and nerves and "pressure points" are generally the
targets of choice.
Level 6: Deadly Force
This level is universally known as "Deadly Force." As the name
indicates, it includes all methods generally accepted to be deadly.
This includes firearms, knives, and blunt instruments targeted at the
head. This level may also legally include choke holds inclusive of
both "strangulation" chokes as well as the infamous "sleeper"
blood-choke.
The intention of the Force Continuum is to lay out an escalation of
force appropriate to the situation. To quote one Internet author:
"'Never shoot what you can baton; never baton what you can spray;
never spray what you can punch; never punch what you can walk away
from.' Less is best."
-Sly, _The psychology of self defense and the force continuum_
Sometimes it can be difficult to know where you are at on the Force
Continuum, to understand what level of response is appropriate.
Again, let me quote, this time from North Carolina Wesleyan College
chart intended for Law Enforcement Officers:
THE CONTINUUM OF FORCE
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Suspect's Resistance Level: | Officer's Level: |
| 1. Suspect presence | 1. Interview stance |
| 2. Verbal resistance | 2. Verbal commands |
| 3. Passive resistance | 3. Passive techniques (handcuffs) |
| 4. Defensive resistance | 4. Chemical agents |
| 5. Active physical resistance | 5. Physical tactics/impact weapons|
| 6. Firearms/deadly force | 6. Firearms/deadly force |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/205/205lect03.htm
Peace favor your sword,Kirk
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chinto
Senior Master
I think its more about adults from dojo's who teach the bunkai and not for sport that they kinda like to know about. i live in a town of about ohh 50,000 to 75,000 .. but I bet if you asked most police they do keep an ear out to the better dojo's and such for who is skilled. not because they figure they will be arresting them, as much i think as a lot of the same dojo's have LEO's attending them. but ya most cops seem to have an attitude that any one who is not a cop might be a potential suspect to arrest. sad but true.
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
Talk about resurrecting an old thread lol.. Just a cpl of quick things
We always get told fighting with a weapon is not the same as unarmed no matter how similar the actions are. The introduction of a weapon changes the game drastically, different angles of attack, different targets and options, different distancing, timing etc. So while you could throw a solid punch while holding a stick, it'd still only be a fist reinforced by a stick held in it. It would't really be an effective strike utilizing the tactics of the weapon or the actual weapon itself - whether that means butt strikes, end of the weapon, as a blocking tool with both hands or whatever. At least that's my take on it based on the way we train our weapons vs our unarmed. Thoughts?
Seems no one told that to my instructor lol! :uhyeah: We get taught the 'safe' distance from a knife is a minimum of 20 feet - and that's to avoid dying. That space can be covered by someone who is committed in a second or 2 which is faster than most peoples' reaction time which then means you can still get cut pretty bad if the adrenaline dump kicks off your freeze response. Whenever we do knife work now and the instructor pulls a knife and tells us to get to where we 'think we'd be safe', my reaction is to walk out of the dojo with a "see you next class guys!"
We always get told fighting with a weapon is not the same as unarmed no matter how similar the actions are. The introduction of a weapon changes the game drastically, different angles of attack, different targets and options, different distancing, timing etc. So while you could throw a solid punch while holding a stick, it'd still only be a fist reinforced by a stick held in it. It would't really be an effective strike utilizing the tactics of the weapon or the actual weapon itself - whether that means butt strikes, end of the weapon, as a blocking tool with both hands or whatever. At least that's my take on it based on the way we train our weapons vs our unarmed. Thoughts?
Seems no one told that to my instructor lol! :uhyeah: We get taught the 'safe' distance from a knife is a minimum of 20 feet - and that's to avoid dying. That space can be covered by someone who is committed in a second or 2 which is faster than most peoples' reaction time which then means you can still get cut pretty bad if the adrenaline dump kicks off your freeze response. Whenever we do knife work now and the instructor pulls a knife and tells us to get to where we 'think we'd be safe', my reaction is to walk out of the dojo with a "see you next class guys!"
I attended a Kobudo seminar once where they talked about the nunchaku, they kind of stated that they would be the one weapon that you wouldn't mind so much if the enemy knocked them out of your hands and tried to use them(assuming they didn't have any training with them) as they would probably do more harm to themselves that to you, not knowing how to correctly use them.
