Brian, you're missing everything again. Let's try once more…
Chris all of the Japanese martial practitioners that I know across several systems all use Japanese white oak for their wooden training weapons and a few utilize hickory.
White oak (shirokashi) is very popular… and hickory is a good American hardwood substitute, as it shares many of the same principles… but none of that has been argued against… nor is any of that really relevant to the point I have been making.
Hickory is easily accessible in the US and a good number of wood workers who make training weapons produce hickory ones.
Er… yeah… you can go back to the third post in the thread for me talking about the benefits and properties of hickory… not really sure what you think you're saying here…
Yet, in the end all the practitioners that I know prefer white oak.
Again, not uncommon. Still not sure what your point is… I mean, the question in the OP didn't involve Japanese woods at all… I brought them up as an example of systems having particular preferences… you then brought them up again to push something the OP didn't ask for, or about, including a scathing, and I might say, rather ill-informed critique on red oak…
No one and I repeat no one uses red oak. They all avoid it! Like me they all think it is crap.
Look, it's fine that you don't know anyone that uses it… but believe me, it is used. Japanese red oak (akakashi) has been a staple for centuries for a range of items… more often longer weapons than shorter ones… also favoured by systems that have a lot of conditioning work, due to the heavier weight… it's an incredibly good wood for the purpose. It crushes like shirokashi… it's heavy… the grain isn't as tight as shirokashi… which means that it takes less time to season and age properly… akakashi is less likely to warp in humid climates as well…
None of that means that red oak is more popular… it's not, really… white oak is… but it does show that red oak (proper red oak) is far from "crap"… but, one more time, the majority of what is sold as "red oak" is really nothing like actual akakashi… so it's both unfair, and rather misleading (or disingenuous) to label it based on false examples. Look again to my analogy of the $79 wall hanger… are you going to judge Japanese swords by that weapon? That's what you're doing with your comments on akakashi.
Actually, tell you what… here's Ellis Amdur's take on the wood:
It is less flexible than hickory and more dent resistant. One negative quality is that the sap tends to dry out. You must regularly oil kashi or it gets increasingly brittle. In addition, as it ages, the grain tends to separate. Most Japanese weapons sold these days are made of inferior oak, from Kyushu (the grain is much more porous) or Taiwan. Genuine kashi from Japan is marvelous for weapons.
Note how he mentions (as I have done) that most "Japanese" oak weapons aren't really what would be classed as actual Japanese oak… either shirokashi or akakashi… you're as likely to get incredibly poor "substitute" white oak as you are red… it's just that the "white" is sold at a premium (based on false representation, more than anything else), so the majority of items sold are substitute red oak… they're both garbage woods, really… but neither of them are the actual Japanese oaks themselves, so it's pointless basing an opinion on these substitutes. You even made this observation on white oak commonly sold yourself in your first post in the thread… so why you're fighting against the idea of it being the same with red, I have no idea…
If you like red oak that is fine as you are entitled to your opinion.
You're missing the argument, Brian. I'm saying that your opinion is not based on any experience with the wood itself… whereas mine is. Hell, you yourself say "My experience with any red oak I have worked with (albeit very rare)"… so you haven't really gotten much experience with any form of red oak, and, from the sounds of things, absolutely none with actual akakashi… again, I don't understand why you're not willing to accept that what you've used was junk, but that's the same as the poor substituted "white oak" you yourself brought up in your post.
For the record, though, my collection includes items in shirokashi, akakashi, both of the "substitute" versions (both of which are terrible… there's a reason I get all the bokken for my school myself from Japan… and only from sources I trust), hornbeam, hickory, manau cane, sunuke, bamboo, leather-bound bamboo, pine, wax-wood, and more… I've also used things like eucalyptus, jotoba, ironbark, kamigong, ebony, and more.
Though you said just above that you, yourself prefer white oak. (kind've confusing for the OP don't you think)
No, not confusing for them… as it's besides the point of the OP, and not part of their question… it was part of the conversation with you. And yeah, I tend to prefer white oak… but I'm not locked into that as a single material… I'm looking at getting some ipu items soon as well…
It feels like we are going through the motions of conversation and in the end just to have the same result in that I would not recommend it for the OP! Nor would I recommend it for anyone training in a system that utilizes hard contact with their wooden training weapons. There is a high likelihood that they would get some training weapons that would splinter, crack, shatter during training and that quite frankly is a good enough reason for me not to recommend anyone train with red oak.
You're not dealing with the actual wood, though. That's the point I've been trying to make. Additionally, the OP hasn't said anything about impact… he's mentioned kobudo… which has quite a lot of solo forms, rather than anything to do with impact… so you're simply projecting your own training onto his question, and are looking for what you would use in your training, without actually considering that his usage and needs are rather different. That's why I only dealt with the woods he asked about… rather than trying to suggest that he has should be using something completely different.
Tell you what… you go and get some real red oak, train with it, and tell me what you think (compared to both your previous "red oak" and with your Japanese white oak)… until then, you're critiquing katana by looking at a wall hanger.
As to fukuro shinai it is good that you have experienced Tim's as they are very, very good. High quality. I have only trained once with a Jinenkan fukuro shinai and it got the job done but not as nice as what Tim or my friend make. Still it got the job done.
They're designed quite differently for a range of reasons, of course… both of them "get the job done", dependent on what the job is. And yeah, Tim's are good… not sure why you feel the need to validate my experience, though… hmm…
Just so we are on the same page. The systems I mentioned the practitioner's prefer white oak and fukuro shinai. Not fukuro shinai over wooden training weapons. I think you confused that though it was pretty plane in my writing before.
No, we're not on the same page, as you've not only not answered my question, you've leapt to an unsupported and inaccurate assumption. I never thought there was a preference for one over the other… my question is what system are you, personally, "very familiar with" that has a preference (as one of it's training tools) for using fukuro shinai? Can you name the systems themselves? That's what I've asked three times now. There may be follow up questions (here's a clue: one of them is already in an above post… number 17…
.
You know what, I think I will ask my instructor that question
About what to look for in swords? Cool.
I don't know what that question means making my self up as I go??
I was asking if you were simply coming up with techniques/combinations yourself… basically swinging a sword around without a pre-determined sequence, for example.
Swords in general but the only sword form i learned is a Chinese sword
Okay. Different forms of swords are going to have some rather wildly varying criteria to them… "swords in general" is not an easy thing to discuss, there are simply way too many variables and exceptions. It's probably better to pick a form of sword first, and learn about it… from there, you can begin to see what's applicable to other forms, and what's particular to that form.
