Weapon origins

[Transk53]

You need to find someone (a professional) who can help you to understand the difference between myth and reality.

For example... you have not made a single statement here that has any basis in reality.
The trident was a fishing spear and a not-terribly-good polearm.

Wow, I did not know the trident was a fishing spear. Just thought that was Ray Harryhausen.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Wow, I did not know the trident was a fishing spear. Just thought that was Ray Harryhausen.

It was, yes. That would be one reason why the (questionable) stories about gladiators armed with tridents typically have them also using a net. If you really had to kill someone with a trident, it would sure be better if they were tied up in a net first.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm thinking we should put up a sticky post somewhere: 90% of the martial arts history that your instructor told you or that you read in books is bogus.

The problem isn't with PhotonGuy being especially gullible. There are loads of books out by respected martial artists repeating the claim that the kobudo weapons originated as farmers tools. The problem is that most martial artists are not historians and for generations have been just repeating whatever their teacher told them.

 

[Transk53]

It was, yes. That would be one reason why the (questionable) stories about gladiators armed with tridents typically have them also using a net. If you really had to kill someone with a trident, it would sure be better if they were tied up in a net first.

The Retiarius. Would not have fancied being one of them.

 

[Grenadier]

Peasants didn't have swords so they used their tools for fighting.

Even though few peasants owned swords, that doesn't mean that they didn't have "military grade" weaponry available to them. The main reason why they didn't own swords was due to the sheer cost of a sword.

Back then, steel was expensive, and finding someone who could manufacture a sword for you was equally expensive. For defensive purposes, peasants were still armed, simply with less expensive, but still quite effective, weaponry, such as spears (and yes, ones designed for combat).

As Mr. Parker stated, I think that you would find it a worthwhile investment to visit your public library, and find some valid information on this subject. It's a very interesting read, and well worth the time spent. After all, the libraries are still free.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm thinking we should put up a sticky post somewhere: 90% of the martial arts history that your instructor told you or that you read in books is bogus.

The problem isn't with PhotonGuy being especially gullible. There are loads of books out by respected martial artists repeating the claim that the kobudo weapons originated as farmers tools. The problem is that most martial artists are not historians and for generations have been just repeating whatever their teacher told them.

See Zhang Sanfeng and Bodhidharma...

 

[Blindside]

As Mr. Parker stated, I think that you would find it a worthwhile investment to visit your public library, and find some valid information on this subject. It's a very interesting read, and well worth the time spent. After all, the libraries are still free.

To be honest I don't think that what would be available at most libraries would be any more accurate than what is available online. Just because someone managed to get something printed doesn't mean it is historically accurate. You still need to vet said information and that is far easier to do online.

 

[Grenadier]

To be honest I don't think that what would be available at most libraries would be any more accurate than what is available online. Just because someone managed to get something printed doesn't mean it is historically accurate. You still need to vet said information and that is far easier to do online.

True, but many libraries have digital subscriptions to publications that would otherwise require a paid subscription to access.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm thinking we should put up a sticky post somewhere: 90% of the martial arts history that your instructor told you or that you read in books is bogus.

The problem isn't with PhotonGuy being especially gullible. There are loads of books out by respected martial artists repeating the claim that the kobudo weapons originated as farmers tools. The problem is that most martial artists are not historians and for generations have been just repeating whatever their teacher told them.

So very true Tony!!!

 

[jks9199]

It was, yes. That would be one reason why the (questionable) stories about gladiators armed with tridents typically have them also using a net. If you really had to kill someone with a trident, it would sure be better if they were tied up in a net first.

Gladiatorial fights really had a lot in common with professional wrestling today... They had a "story" and different styles of fighters represented different elements of the storyline. I can't remember all of how it broke down off the top of my head, but that was the idea. The guys with tridents and spears symbolized one set of virtues and ideas, a guy with a straight sword or sword & buckler/small shield another.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I might've been wrong about the origin of the weapons used in the japanese martial arts but that's what lots of the books tell me about how they originated, from peasant's tools. But aside from that what I am trying to get at is how to use everyday objects of today as weapons. Stuff you would get at a hardware store. For instance, incorporating the use of a hammer into martial arts.

 

[Blindside]

I might've been wrong about the origin of the weapons used in the japanese martial arts but that's what lots of the books tell me about how they originated, from peasant's tools. But aside from that what I am trying to get at is how to use everyday objects of today as weapons. Stuff you would get at a hardware store. For instance, incorporating the use of a hammer into martial arts.

I teach kali. We teach the conceptual use of long and short thrusting, slashing, and impact weapons. Once you have those concepts you don't have to teach the specifics of any one tool, you the apply the appropriate methods to whatever you have in your hand.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I might've been wrong about the origin of the weapons used in the japanese martial arts

You misspelled "am totally and completely incorrect" above. Hope this helps.

but that's what lots of the books tell me about how they originated, from peasant's tools.

Ask the librarian to help you find the "non-fiction" section...

But aside from that what I am trying to get at is how to use everyday objects of today as weapons. Stuff you would get at a hardware store. For instance, incorporating the use of a hammer into martial arts.

Why? If you're studying a traditional martial art, you'll be learning the weapons appropriate to the traditions of that art. If you're interested in modern self defense techniques, then you should be training in modern weapons.
Improvised weapons don't need extensive training; they're not weapons. If you can use a hammer to pound in a nail, you pretty much know how to use one.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh dear lord…

Post #16. Read it, please.

I might've been wrong about the origin of the weapons used in the japanese martial arts

The stories are about Okinawan arts, not Japanese ones.

but that's what lots of the books tell me about how they originated, from peasant's tools.

Some, but very few, and most of those stories are very, very lacking in any real historical credibility. But you've been told that by most of the posters in this thread already…

But aside from that what I am trying to get at is how to use everyday objects of today as weapons. Stuff you would get at a hardware store. For instance, incorporating the use of a hammer into martial arts.

Huh? You want us to tell you how to use everyday items as a weapon? Why? And, I have to point out, the idea of you asking "how" hasn't come up in the thread before this post… you were saying that it should be present (which, by itself, isn't correct, but completely dependent on the system and approach itself)… now you're asking how such items should be used?

Not about to answer that. Ask your teacher. If they think it's information you can handle, they might tell you.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I teach kali. We teach the conceptual use of long and short thrusting, slashing, and impact weapons. Once you have those concepts you don't have to teach the specifics of any one tool, you the apply the appropriate methods to whatever you have in your hand.

Kali is good. I've trained in Kali and mostly what it focuses on is stick fighting. Sticks are good weapons to learn because they're easy to come by.

 

[Instructor]

Although I am pretty sure it strikes fear in the hearts of my neighbors as well as convince them I am certifiably insane...I swing around racks, hoes, shovels and all sorts of tools in my yard based on the MA weapons I already know, even throw small garden shovels like a knife to see if I can stick them in the ground... no need to make special forms....

Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane. Keeps everyone on their toes. lol

Check:matrix:

 

[Blindside]

Kali is good. I've trained in Kali and mostly what it focuses on is stick fighting. Sticks are good weapons to learn because they're easy to come by.

In the last year I have done specific training modules on knife, empty hand, machete, spear, and tomahawk. The sticks are a training tool, not necessarily a focus of the curriculum.