Weapon fight is the CMA goal

[Oily Dragon]

This is another case of Descriptive vs Actual and you keep confusing the two because you do not distinguish between the two and your kung fu will suffer. This is the same mindset that many people fall into when trying to fight using TMA techniques. They think the Form is the exact manner of how one actually fights. But in reality, the techniques are more like a descriptive representation of what is actually used in fighting.

The motions in the form are similar to the motion used in fighting, but they are not the same.
Drawing a bow Kung Fu is similar to the motion in Archery but they are not the same.

Standing in horse in Kung Fu is similar to sitting on a horse but they are not the same.
Knowing one does not mean you know how to correctly use the other.

It has even been said my many martial arts Instructors and teachers all over the world. "That in application, the technique takes the shape of the form."

You never answered my question, so I'm guessing you've never fired a bow while standing on the side of a mountain.

It's an archery form. It's not a metaphor, in this case. Bow and arrow.

Remember when you denied that kung fu lineages transmitted detailed nutritional and medicinal knowledge? This is like then.

 

[isshinryuronin]

So when I see a martial arts names like "Strong Bow shoots Arrow" it's more descriptive than functional

These fanciful names for CMA techniques (also as in Parker's Kenpo - "broken twig" is an arm break including set-up and follow-up) are descriptive, albeit a short hand version, of the techniques. Just like secretarial short hand is unreadable to anyone but a stenographer trained in it, these MA names reveal little to others, except those trained in that particular school. Sort of like code.

The name of the move may convey some of the technique's essence and may lead to some guess on kind of, generally, maybe, what the technique or application is, but not with much accuracy. For example, "cracked eggs" may give a hint of what the technique is largely concerned with, but no hint of exactly what moves it actually entails, other than its probably being very painful. A different school may have a different set of techniques that accomplish the same result, but call it "plucking the golden nuts." (I doubt the recipient of such moves would appreciate the cleverness of the names.)

I think this is how each school in old China kept their style's moves proprietary. I can't see any other reason for it. While many classical martial artists were trained in poetry and literature, I doubt their love of words was the main reason to chose such fanciful names.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You never answered my question, so I'm guessing you've never fired a bow while standing on the side of a mountain.

It's an archery form. It's not a metaphor, in this case. Bow and arrow.

Remember when you denied that kung fu lineages transmitted detailed nutritional and medicinal knowledge? This is like then.

My answer to the question is irrelevant to the discussion, because such question only seeks to change the focus.

You literally went from an illustration of a Chinese Mythological Character, to a Hung Ga stance, to a hunter KNEELING on the side of a hill.

So what is your point now? My guess is that if someone points out that you "move the goal post" then that will be the moment you move the post again.
The only thing I remember about our discussion about

emember when you denied that kung fu lineages transmitted detailed nutritional and medicinal knowledge? This is like then.

Actually that discussion was never about nutritional and medicinal knowledge. It was about Sugar. The reason I know is because you kept bringing up your perspective of it and I kept posting a lot of links and information about the history of sugar. As a matter of fact you kept saying that Chinese knew something about Sugar that other people didn't know about.

That was literally the longest discussion I have ever had about Sugar, and through that entire discussion that "goal post" just kept moving.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't need "links".

Then how do you know what a person is referring to if you don't read their links?

 

[Flying Crane]

You never answered my question, so I'm guessing you've never fired a bow while standing on the side of a mountain.

It's an archery form. It's not a metaphor, in this case. Bow and arrow.

Remember when you denied that kung fu lineages transmitted detailed nutritional and medicinal knowledge? This is like then.

What is your archery experience?

 

[Flying Crane]

Not a square horse. Gi Ng Ma (Gong Gi Bo in Jow Ga Kuen) are not square horse stances. These are front toe aligned with back heel, while pivoting the waist at a 90 degree angle to face the target (Juk Meen).

Ok, so it’s a bit opened. It still isn’t an archery stance.

The posture is so named because it is a situational archery stance like this one, the type used by hunters and warriors and not target hobbyists.





Like trying to fire while standing on a 45 degree incline, you could not possibly do this with a standard square target shooter's stance.

You are witnessing how the Shaolin preserved the strength and conditioning training of countless generations of archery soldiers.

Of course everything is situational.

Feel free to believe what you want. If you want to believe that Shaolin preserved ancient archery through a posture that has a superficial resemblance to drawing a bow, be my guest. I find you unconvincing. I do not believe you have the knowledge that you wish us to believe you have. It is my impression that you would like to convince us that you have received rare and possibly “secret” instruction that elevates you above the rest. I don’t buy it. Discussions with you are tedious and pointless, so it’s unlikely that I will continue to engage with you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ok, so it’s a bit opened. It still isn’t an archery stance.


Of course everything is situational.

Feel free to believe what you want. If you want to believe that Shaolin preserved ancient archery through a posture that has a superficial resemblance to drawing a bow, be my guest. I find you unconvincing. I do not believe you have the knowledge that you wish us to believe you have. It is my impression that you would like to convince us that you have received rare and possibly “secret” instruction that elevates you above the rest. I don’t buy it. Discussions with you are tedious and pointless, so it’s unlikely that I will continue to engage with you.

yes very tedious. especially if source links aren't being read.

 

[Flying Crane]

yes very tedious. especially if source links aren't being read.

He is just trying to do a sales job on us. I’m not buying.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You literally went from an illustration of a Chinese Mythological Character, to a Hung Ga stance, to a hunter KNEELING on the side of a hill.

So what is your point now?

All those things I mentioned are interrelated, because it's an archery stance. There is a reason why the Gong Gi Bo (how you learned the Shaolin "forward stance", in Jow Ga) is called the Bow and Arrow stance, the Sundial Stance, The 6 and 12 O'Clock stance, the Mountain Climbing Stance, and especially 前弓後箭馬 (Horse Archery Stance).

In some cases names are metaphorical, that is not the case with this particular stance. Juk Meen Jin Choi means side facing Arrow fist, and anyone with archery training should be able to see the stability of the stance for archery purposes. This isn't my opinion, it's fact.

Actually that discussion was never about nutritional and medicinal knowledge. It was about Sugar.

Those three things are also intimately related, especially when training Chinese martial arts. Can't you see why I brought up alcohol, sugar, and herbs in a discussion about traditional stancework?

I can't teach you anything, especially the missing parts of your Jow Ga Kuen knowledge, if you limit yourself like this. Open your mind, just a little.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Ok, so it’s a bit opened. It still isn’t an archery stance.

Yes it is, and we can go on and on as long as you like.

And my archery experience is that I can teach you how to fire either a recurve or compound bow in this stance.

It's a perfect stance for specific situations.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Then how do you know what a person is referring to if you don't read their links?

Why are you posting links, when I am giving you solid information about this stance you claim to train (for free)?

I should charge you money.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'll drop one more free one, the 前弓後箭馬 is definitely evidence that the title of this thread is interesting, because it is a military archer's stance that probably predates China (it's also in Yoga), that was turned into a strength training exercise in empty handed Shaolin Si training and its descendants like Jow Ga.

Of course there is no actual archery in Jow Ga, or any other Five Family Style... but that's beside the point. What remains is the training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why are you posting links, when I am giving you solid information about this stance you claim to train (for free)?

Here's the deal. In terms of my Jow Ga and training. I don't just trust anyone with my Jow Ga growth. I don't know anything about you other than Oily Dragon. I have never seen you use Jow Ga or even explain it in the same manner as those Jow Ga practitioners who I do know. You have never shown a video of you doing Jow Ga, either in form or application. I'm still undecided on if you actually train Jow Ga. You threw Ron's name out there and his book which is suspicious in itself. There's so much heat and debate around that name that most Jow Ga practitioners rarely bring his name into the picture because that's when the drama starts.

The only thing I know about you and what you do is that you are someone who goes by the name Oiley Dragon who thinks I don't know anything about Sugar, alcohol, and training without even knowing what my current diet is or my education in those areas. Not sure why you don't think I know about stances either.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Of course there is no actual archery in Jow Ga, or any other Five Family Style... but that's beside the point. What remains is the training.

So you do Jow Ga. You state that there is no Archery in Jow Ga, but you give me a hard time about an Archery stance.
Your videos shows how to punch not how to shoot an arrow

 

[Deleted member 39746]

As far as i can tell, bow stance is jsut a elongated standard stance, or deretive of one. (i would go as far to state over extended) and has no relfection on archery, but is called bow for what ever reason. (probbly matches standard chinese naming methodology for thes ethings like the monkey steals peach sort of thing, that doesnt mean you are a monkey, or it would help you steal peaches)

The methodology for standing and drawing bows etc is dependent on the bow used, you cant shoot a English Longbow on horseback for example, or crouching, you need to be standing and a pretty solid stance. Also, stance is semi useless by itself for archery, you need to shoot a bow to build up your muslces to shoot heavier draw weight bows or shoot that one more often.


(well, im sure you might be able to improv something on horseback or crouching with a E Longbow, but it would be a pain and would be slow/ineffective shooting)


So as there is no archery in this style or practises, even if it may be applied to it, it seems compeltely useless as you arent building up the dexterioty or muscles to use the bow. and it begs the question, why if there is no archery, there would be any form of suppliemental specfic to archery training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Guess what guys. I found 2 things. I found an old picture of a guy in horse stance shooting an arrow, but you'll have to read the source link to put the images in context. Remember context is everything. There's more descriptions about what's going on in the pages

So this one shows someone. in a horse stance shooting a bow. Source: Manchu Archery: Photographs of Manchu and Chinese archers | Fe Doro - Manchu archery

This picture is from page Manchu Archery
:

Here is a video of why someone would make stand in a horse stance while shooting an arrow.

What he says makes sense in a lot of ways. And explains why across cultures you'll see this archers take stances that look more like this.

I'm adding this picture and source because it validates what the video says. 1900 - 01 CHINA BOXER REBELLION REBEL HOLDING BOW & ARROW POSTCARD 义和拳 | eBay

This is actually a modern day Tribal war with bow and arrows. I originally thought it was a staged or reenactment, but nope, It's an actual real war with real bows. Keep in mind that they aren't "trained military archers" but the tactic that they are using is a military one(spreading out and shooting from a hill). The first thing that came to my mind is a long bow. Or something with more range. If my men have a longer range then they can take a more reliable stable archery stance and my men could afford to stand like we see from many pictures. After all military archers are a long range unit that allows you to soften up and cause injury to shorter range archers and non archers. The more you kill and would from a distance the fewer you have to deal with when you send the non-archers. This is a military tactic that is still used to day with modern weapons.

Native Americans and cultures that come from large wooded areas may be the only groups that didn't fight like those in the picture below. They probably took more of an ambush approach to warfare. This would have been in line with how hunting was done, by camping out on a game trail and waiting for the enemy. In this context there would be no need to shoot arrows hundreds of yards away, and you'll be able to use a smaller force to get rid of a larger one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My guess during any era of time. There were 2 types of archers. Hunters and Military. Hunters probably had to shoot arrows while in different stances. These stances were not the same stances that military archers used. Hunter stances would be influenced by the the environment and the type of game that they are hunting. The running archery stances were probably due to chasing prey. This is a video that shows hunters from a tribe shooting arrows on the run.

They also corner the animals during the hunt so they cannot escape too far. This is a tactic that has been used across many cultures. Hunt in a pack. Wolves do the same thing when they hunt. They limit the retreat of their prey then run it down. Running with an arrow makes sense as you can see in the video that the first shot is not always a kill shot, which is why some hunters use poison on arrow tips and darts. It makes the non-lethal arrow strike, lethal.

Military for the most part wouldn't worry about too much stance variations, there goal would be to get the enemy on an open field and shoot from a distance with the best stance for shooting a bow. It never fails, context is everything.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Shooting Arrows in horse stance. it was also interesting to see that, shooting an arrow in a horse stance exists because a martial artist is trying to apply what he knows about stances to Archery. In other words. A kung fu guy uses an kung fu stance to shoot an arrow instead of an archery stance.

If this is the case, then shooting in horse stance is not an archery stance. It's a stance used by a martial artist making the assumption that because the horse stance is good for fighting with kung fu that it will be equally strong for archery, which is not the case.

 

[Flying Crane]

Guess what guys. I found 2 things. I found an old picture of a guy in horse stance shooting an arrow, but you'll have to read the source link to put the images in context. Remember context is everything. There's more descriptions about what's going on in the pages

So this one shows someone. in a horse stance shooting a bow. Source: Manchu Archery: Photographs of Manchu and Chinese archers | Fe Doro - Manchu archery

This picture is from page Manchu Archery
:

Here is a video of why someone would make stand in a horse stance while shooting an arrow.

What he says makes sense in a lot of ways. And explains why across cultures you'll see this archers take stances that look more like this.

View attachment 23349

I'm adding this picture and source because it validates what the video says. 1900 - 01 CHINA BOXER REBELLION REBEL HOLDING BOW & ARROW POSTCARD 义和拳 | eBay

This is actually a modern day Tribal war with bow and arrows. I originally thought it was a staged or reenactment, but nope, It's an actual real war with real bows. Keep in mind that they aren't "trained military archers" but the tactic that they are using is a military one(spreading out and shooting from a hill). The first thing that came to my mind is a long bow. Or something with more range. If my men have a longer range then they can take a more reliable stable archery stance and my men could afford to stand like we see from many pictures. After all military archers are a long range unit that allows you to soften up and cause injury to shorter range archers and non archers. The more you kill and would from a distance the fewer you have to deal with when you send the non-archers. This is a military tactic that is still used to day with modern weapons.

Native Americans and cultures that come from large wooded areas may be the only groups that didn't fight like those in the picture below. They probably took more of an ambush approach to warfare. This would have been in line with how hunting was done, by camping out on a game trail and waiting for the enemy. In this context there would be no need to shoot arrows hundreds of yards away, and you'll be able to use a smaller force to get rid of a larger one.

Good finds. And I am in agreement with what the fellow says in the video, it is similar to my own assessment. I have on occasion tried to draw and shoot from something approaching a deeper square horse and I find it awkward. The kung fu in me wants to use that stance on an intellectual level, but the reality feels strange and awkward and seems to separate the power of my legs from my ability to draw. Meaning, my leg strength is too preoccupied with keeping the stance, and can’t be used to draw the bow.

I personally find that a lighter bow can be drawn without use of the legs, but with a heavier bow I engage the leg strength more.

@Tony Dismukes posted a video earlier of Justin Ma demonstrating how to draw a heavy bow. I tried to work with the method shown in that video and found it problematic for me personally. His shoulder angle when reaching for the string is fairly open, but then he pulls on the string and does not much push the bow. That kind of draw is painful in my shoulder joint, for the pulling arm. I can do it with a bow up to about 65 #, but above that I feel like I am risking injury to the shoulder joint.

My solution, as I described earlier, is to raise the bow up, anchor the thumb joint of my pulling hand at either my chin or at the hinge of my jaw depending on the brace height of the bow, and then pushing the bow out with the other arm, and only pulling the last inch or two with the drawing arm. Most of the work is done with the bow arm, in pushing. This keeps the angle of the shoulder joint much more open than if I were to reach across and pull, and does not feel like I am in danger of injuring my shoulder.

It is possible that if I worked with Justin’s technique for a longer time I could develop the strength to do it with heavier bows, but at this point it just leaves my shoulder joint feeling like it is on the edge of injury so I am choosing to stick with my technique. I do feel that there is more than one “correct” way to do these things.

At any rate, with a heavier bow and using my draw technique, I find that I push into the ground with my forward foot, and slightly turn my torso away from the bow as I make my draw. This is difficult or impossible (for me) to do in a deeper square horse. A more relaxed and upright stance seems to work better, with my technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

. I have on occasion tried to draw and shoot from something approaching a deeper square horse and I find it awkward. The kung fu in me wants to use that stance on an intellectual level, but the reality feels strange and awkward and seems to separate the power of my legs from my ability to draw. Meaning, my leg strength is too preoccupied with keeping the stance, and can’t be used to draw the bow.

I've been looking at all of the historical painting and hieroglyphics for Archery and have come to the conclusion: Archers around the world take similar stances to this because it's the most practical and effective stance for an archer. If you are part of the military then practical and efficient is a must.

The "bow stance" works really well for pulling or drawing back. Any who has mowed a lawn with a pull string lawn mower would be familiar with a similar pulling while in bow. They would also know that the picture below is the worst. Who wears pink socks when doing the lawn? lol.

But in all seriousness, I think the picture below is from the Boxer rebellion. People who weren't archers using the bow. I went back and compared clothing of people during certain time periods and the clothing here was common around the time of the boxer Rebellion. There's a lot of pictures out there, lots of beheadings (they didn't seem to be good at it) .but the dress fashion and the shoes give it away.

Take note of the foot wear which is similar to the person in the archery photo. The other thing to take into consideration is the technology (the photo itself) so the photos here had to be taken after the camera was invented. The first photograph was taken back in 1827. The Boxer Rebellion happened 1889-1901. So not really a long time in terms of standard Archery Stances