Weapon fight is the CMA goal

[JowGaWolf]

A martial arts program would be rather progressive.

I think something like that would be perfect for them to release their aggression out and would teach them how to better manage it. It could also be a good team building opportunity where say a bully and his potential victim can find a common ground. Then have the school compete in martial arts tournaments around the country and world. It'll give the school an opportunity to control and shape aggressive behavior instead of trying to convert Zen Followers of the Peaceful Follower. And if students have beef with each other train them hard, then let them spar. The combination of being exhausted and supervised should make sparring really settle that score, without serious injury.

So essentially what he's saying is that Chinese kung fu is useless for modern hand to hand combat because it was designed for fighting with obsolete medieval weapons?

Well..... that certainly explains a lot.

That's why I said it sounds like an excuse triggered by MMA practitioner beating up "fake kung fu masters" Correct. It's an excuse to cover for the poor performance from "fake kung fu masters." If truth be told, It's a complete embarrassment for Chinese culture there. All of that talk about Martial Arts making people thugs.... hmmm. I can't see that as Today's reality. But like they say. First Pride then the Fall..

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do practical modern weapon fighters adopt these martial concepts?

lol.. that would make me go to the ground game really quick. It'll be better than getting hit with that stick lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Street fights with sticks and bats does not look like this. Who the love will block bat with his hand?
When I was about 19/20 I once tried to parry stick (holded by nazi skinhead) with my forearm. I missed a little, he missed a little and the stick hit my left hand/palm/metacarpus.
I am righthanded so I still was able to fight with my own bat, but my lefy hand was useless for on month.

I think they are that aggressive because of the protective gear. The videos I've see of people fighting with sticks or staffs weren't that skilled. They only knew to swing a bat or swing a stick and none of those fights were stellar and most involved didn't know how to fight with sticks or staffs.

At the most the videos I've seen have been good videos on how not to fight with sticks or staffs.

 

[Hanzou]

That's why I said it sounds like an excuse triggered by MMA practitioner beating up "fake kung fu masters" Correct. It's an excuse to cover for the poor performance from "fake kung fu masters." If truth be told, It's a complete embarrassment for Chinese culture there. All of that talk about Martial Arts making people thugs.... hmmm. I can't see that as Today's reality. But like they say. First Pride then the Fall..

Okay, but what if it's true, and Kung Fu isn't really meant for empty handed fighting? I mean, the guy did make some good points. The exaggerated movements really don't make much sense when you're fighting someone punching you in the face. However, when he held weapons, those movements did make a lot more sense. Also given when some of those systems were created, it would make more practical sense to create a system based around weapons than being unarmed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Okay, but what if it's true, and Kung Fu isn't really meant for empty handed fighting?

No need to wonder. There are so many empty hand techniques that it rules out the one or 2 pieces that he presented. Ways to make fists, ways to punch, kicks, grabs. etc. none of which are related to using a weapon. Are some of the movements similar? Of Course, but to make a broad assumption that it isn't really meant for empty hand fighting is way out there. In my opinion that makes as much sense as the Yellow Bamboo stuff.

Any deficiencies present in Kung Fu is the combined result of China wanting to make it ineffective, trying to squash it out and practitioners not trying to learn how to use it. Instead of training to fight they took and keeping it alive, they decided to depend on legends and stories of those who actually learned how to use it. Sort of like how MMA fan boys champion MMA but never once trained it.

The exaggerated movements really don't make much sense when you're fighting someone punching you in the face.

I train a form that use what people may see as "exaggerated movements" and the concept of exaggeration is misunderstood, not only my non kung fu practitioners but also by those who actually train the systems. When I train, the "exaggerated movements" are more of a stretched movement. Exaggerated would mean that my movements extend beyond my structure..

With long fist we want to be loose since being tight slows the speed of the punches, as a result in training (forms) we concentrate on making movements longer but not exaggerated. It's similar to the mindset that if you want to fight for 1 minute then train to fight for 2 minutes. If you want to be good at running the mile, then train by running 2 miles. These are also examples of of what people may concider "exaggeration."

In reality when fighting. Long fists fighting techniques for the same punch will vary in length. I can pull things in for close range or I can fight at longer distances without tensing up. Jow Ga students are known for using too much force in sparring, because we are always taught to relax when hitting. As a result the strikes land harder without having to really put much into them. You see me in my videos pulling punches for this very same reason, that state of relaxation comes from "exaggerating the punches" more accurate, it comes from relaxation and allowing the punch to extend or stretch. Boxers also do something similar with their Jabs.

Here you can see the relaxation of his punch You don't get this by practicing short jabs all the time. The relaxation part isn't easy since fighting can be a tense thing.

If you are looking at Martial Arts that's done for "entertainment only, then a lot of things are going to be exaggerated. Stances are going to be super low, kicks are going to be way to high for combat, flips, and splits. You'll see it tons of exaggerating. For example, there's is no fighting benefit to be able to kick like this or to even train like this. If this is what you are thinking of then you also have to remember that these people also don't fight using Kung Fu. I don't do any of this stuff in my training as it's not beneficial to fighting or my safety.

Also given when some of those systems were created, it would make more practical sense to create a system based around weapons than being unarmed.

While some movements are going to translate into weapon fighting and some would be born from weapon fighting there will be other systems that don't fall into that category, so to assume that all kung fu has such origins would not be accurate. Contrary to the belief of many, forms do not teach everything. There are other things outside of the forms that are also taught. Things that are taught by people who actually know how to use a martial arts system for fighting.

If you never use Kung Fu to fight, then all you'll ever know is the Form.

This is the hard truth of Kung Fu, one that applies to student, teacher and "Kung Fu Master"

 

[Cynik75]

I think they are that aggressive because of the protective gear. The videos I've see of people fighting with sticks or staffs weren't that skilled. They only knew to swing a bat or swing a stick and none of those fights were stellar and most involved didn't know how to fight with sticks or staffs.

At the most the videos I've seen have been good videos on how not to fight with sticks or staffs.

Training:

Sparring:

Reality:

 

[Hanzou]

No need to wonder. There are so many empty hand techniques that it rules out the one or 2 pieces that he presented. Ways to make fists, ways to punch, kicks, grabs. etc. none of which are related to using a weapon. Are some of the movements similar? Of Course, but to make a broad assumption that it isn't really meant for empty hand fighting is way out there. In my opinion that makes as much sense as the Yellow Bamboo stuff.

Any deficiencies present in Kung Fu is the combined result of China wanting to make it ineffective, trying to squash it out and practitioners not trying to learn how to use it. Instead of training to fight they took and keeping it alive, they decided to depend on legends and stories of those who actually learned how to use it. Sort of like how MMA fan boys champion MMA but never once trained it.

I train a form that use what people may see as "exaggerated movements" and the concept of exaggeration is misunderstood, not only my non kung fu practitioners but also by those who actually train the systems. When I train, the "exaggerated movements" are more of a stretched movement. Exaggerated would mean that my movements extend beyond my structure..

With long fist we want to be loose since being tight slows the speed of the punches, as a result in training (forms) we concentrate on making movements longer but not exaggerated. It's similar to the mindset that if you want to fight for 1 minute then train to fight for 2 minutes. If you want to be good at running the mile, then train by running 2 miles. These are also examples of of what people may concider "exaggeration."

In reality when fighting. Long fists fighting techniques for the same punch will vary in length. I can pull things in for close range or I can fight at longer distances without tensing up. Jow Ga students are known for using too much force in sparring, because we are always taught to relax when hitting. As a result the strikes land harder without having to really put much into them. You see me in my videos pulling punches for this very same reason, that state of relaxation comes from "exaggerating the punches" more accurate, it comes from relaxation and allowing the punch to extend or stretch. Boxers also do something similar with their Jabs.

Here you can see the relaxation of his punch You don't get this by practicing short jabs all the time. The relaxation part isn't easy since fighting can be a tense thing.

If you are looking at Martial Arts that's done for "entertainment only, then a lot of things are going to be exaggerated. Stances are going to be super low, kicks are going to be way to high for combat, flips, and splits. You'll see it tons of exaggerating. For example, there's is no fighting benefit to be able to kick like this or to even train like this. If this is what you are thinking of then you also have to remember that these people also don't fight using Kung Fu. I don't do any of this stuff in my training as it's not beneficial to fighting or my safety.

While some movements are going to translate into weapon fighting and some would be born from weapon fighting there will be other systems that don't fall into that category, so to assume that all kung fu has such origins would not be accurate. Contrary to the belief of many, forms do not teach everything. There are other things outside of the forms that are also taught. Things that are taught by people who actually know how to use a martial arts system for fighting.

If you never use Kung Fu to fight, then all you'll ever know is the Form.

This is the hard truth of Kung Fu, one that applies to student, teacher and "Kung Fu Master"

Thank you for this breakdown. You made some great points.

 

[lklawson]

lol.. that would make me go to the ground game really quick. It'll be better than getting hit with that stick lol.

The Dog Brothers were among the first main-stream U.S. based fusion systems to add ground-grappling into their stick system. They like BJJ, wrestling, Judo, a particularly hard version of Filipino stick stuff, Boxing, and Muay Thai.

As for the HEMA stuff... That video clip of the competition isn't really representative of what most instructors think the style is/was/should be. I'm glad they're doing it, it looks like fun, but it's not historically accurate in any sense. Past that, yes, grappling was a big part of medieval armored combat. In armor, joint breaks/dislocations, and isolation were particularly important. Ground work, less so, though I've heard the argument made that it was necessary to be able to apply a coup de grace with a dagger. There's plenty of ground grappling documented but it doesn't get as much air time nowadays. Apparently bashing about with sword-like-objects is sexier than fighting.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The Dog Brothers were among the first main-stream U.S. based fusion systems to add ground-grappling into their stick system. They like BJJ, wrestling, Judo, a particularly hard version of Filipino stick stuff, Boxing, and Muay Thai.

They've got some good Krabi Krabong material integrated into their curriculum as well.

They make good use of BJJ and wrestling, but it's interesting to see the little details they have to modify in order to account for the presence of weapons.

 

[lklawson]

They've got some good Krabi Krabong material integrated into their curriculum as well.

You're right. I almost mentioned it. I recall reading about when they imported KK into their fusion style. I thought it was really interesting and unique.

They make good use of BJJ and wrestling, but it's interesting to see the little details they have to modify in order to account for the presence of weapons.

Agreed. I think it's important work. It's one thing to see an existing style which claims to have grappling integrated with weapons, and it's interesting to see historic manuals which teach and depict it (like HEMA). But it's another thing to watch a group mixing it in. Adding weapons to grappling (or grappling to weapons) turns a decision tree into a spider web. They're not really "rediscovering" and they're certainly not starting from square one. But those subtle things that aren't really obvious until you start sparring it out are fascinating to me.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

Training:

Sparring:

Reality:

The video of the Machete looks like he really didn't want to cut the guy, but it does put into perspective just how damaging a cut can be. The guy in jeans (the one who got cut) seem to move just fine for a good 30 seconds before that leg started responding negatively to being cut. I must be really violent because I kept thinking... "knife guy, what are you doing? He's got a longer blade that he can just swipe for your face." There's some sword techniques that could have been used that are circular. You make the first initial swing in circular motion (non- hacking motion) and after that swing it appears that you are really open but you'll loop that swing and send it back at the person without even reducing speed. All of the Machete fights are nuts. The Dominican Republic has a lot of them and they swing like they are trying to cut someone's arm off.

If I lived around in an area like that, I might as well freaking suit up and carry a sword. Crazy. Makes me glad that I live where I do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ground work, less so, though I've heard the argument made that it was necessary to be able to apply a coup de grace with a dagger.

Yeah I saw a lot of opportunities for a dagger to be inserted into the arm pit. Not sure how were I heard this, but many years ago, I learned about the armor and it's weakspots where the armour didn't cover like armpits. All that was needed was a lengthy dagger.

 

[Oily Dragon]

lol.. that would make me go to the ground game really quick. It'll be better than getting hit with that stick lol.

Hold up.......you've never been hit with a stick while on the ground?

Up your game.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hold up.......you've never been hit with a stick while on the ground?

Up your game.

I'm too good of a fighter to get hit with a stick while on the ground. I beat everyone. The day I find my self in that position is the day "I made a wrong turn at albuquerque"

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm too good of a fighter to get hit with a stick while on the ground. I beat everyone. The day I find my self in that position is the day "I made a wrong turn at albuquerque"

I never learned my left from my right, so they could happen any time I am in Albuquerque.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Sometimes artwork is just artwork and people shouldn't read too munch into it. When it comes to artwork, they aren't always trying to depict realism. I wouldn't use such pictures as a historical reference on stances

You should. It's all we really have from 400 years ago. There are multiple "bow and arrow" stances predating modern photography but Juk Meen Jin Choi is called "bow and arrow" for a reason.

Here is a very famous Southern master illustrated for purposes of instruction in the early 20th century, you can easily see how the "bow and arrow" stance pictured here (whether you call it Gong Ma Bo, Gung Gi Bo, Ji Ng Ma Bo) originates from a long-range archer's position. It's also one of the major Southern bridges (Juk Kiu, the "direct" bridge).

If you can't, maybe you've never fired a bow, which isn't all that uncommon in the 21st century, so nothing to be ashamed of. If you have, just drop into the stance and pretend you have a longbow. It'll click. If you can understand this hanzi, it'll click even more.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Okay, but what if it's true, and Kung Fu isn't really meant for empty handed fighting? I mean, the guy did make some good points. The exaggerated movements really don't make much sense when you're fighting someone punching you in the face. However, when he held weapons, those movements did make a lot more sense. Also given when some of those systems were created, it would make more practical sense to create a system based around weapons than being unarmed.

Chinese martial arts started out as 100% weapons based thousands of years BC, and then around the Ming Dynasty empty handed "styles" evolved, by philosophical pacifists who happened to be drawn into endless dynastic warfare. And punching people in the face is very much all over the Chinese martial arts. There are dozens of "choi" for every occasion.

To argue that Kung fu can't be used for this or that is really stupid. Kung fu can conquer anything, and if you think Kung fu can't be used for fighting, you've only seen bad kung fu.

To quote Roy Nelson, MMA legend, "I know my iron-body kung fu made my chin". You go tell him he's wrong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You should. It's all we really have from 400 years ago. There are multiple "bow and arrow" stances predating modern photography but Juk Meen Jin Choi is called "bow and arrow" for a reason.

No I shouldn't, because people back then had imaginations and artistic expressions as well. Just like this image which isn't about martial arts, it's a story picture. People play music and had other forms of entertainment.

 

[Hanzou]

To quote Roy Nelson, MMA legend, "I know my iron-body kung fu made my chin". You go tell him he's wrong.

I don’t need to. His MMA record dies that for me.

As for Kung Fu, I can only go by what I see. Heck, look at these two Tai Chi and White Crane “masters” going at it in this event from the 1950’s;

Then you have these rooftop fights in Hong King showing more “slap fu”;

What should we glean from this? You take those examples and compound it with some budget MMA dude beating up modern Kung Fu “masters” at will and we’re supposed to have a positive opinion on Kung Fu?

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don’t need to. His MMA record dies that for me.

As for Kung Fu, I can only go by what I see.

So what you're saying is, you need to.

If your opinions are limited to Youtube, you're stuck in the mud, Alabama style. One tire spins, the other does nothin.

You should form your opinions from the experience of people like Roy Nelson. Why is Roy's iron chin kung fu superior to your own fighting skills? Let's start there.