Weapon and Multiple Attacker Defense

[bujuts]

-So what are these magical techniques that allow people to take on multiple armed opponents empty handed? Sounds like BS to me.

The boys in uniform are but some who train against multiple assailants. But no, nothing will work against a gun outside the range of physical contact. Nothing is magical, and nothing is foolproof.

You likely already have elements of things that can be applied to multiple assailants. I'm assuming you're a grappler, so don't grappling principles allow you to break joints while in motion with your feet? Doesn't your system disarm the alpha's knife after dealing with the initial attack? If so, do it in motion as you move away from bravo. How fast can a competent grappler get to someone's back? Pretty fast, so destroy his base and break some skeletal structures before his buddy makes it to you. Can you throw someone quickly to put them on their head? Did you disarm that knife in such a way that its now in your posession? If so, use it. Can you move around objects in the immediate environment? Did you strip a pistol when this all started? Can you ram someone's head into a wall? Can you kick out a knee? Can you break someone's nose with an inward elbow shot? Can you grab someones ear and lever your thumb into their eye socket? Can you stomp on someone's throat after you've slammed them onto their head.

My guess is you answered "yes" to most of these. With proper footwork (footwork being your saving grace, btw), you're system likely already has the "magic" in it. Your system is probably like Ragu - its in there. You just need to find it then train it.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Steven

 

[Shogun]

I don't know how all BJJ/GJJ schools train, but I guarantee you a legit Gracie Jiu-jitsu school teaching self defense aspects would not recommend Clinching with a guy, taking them down, armbarring them, or anything of that nature while their friends are stanfing by. thats just a bad idea. now, if you didn't see the friends, then no martial art is really going to help you. thats called "the circle of life" (enter Lion king theme) when you get into a fight and then get ambushed by two,three random friends outa nowhere.

besides, as Renzo Gracie says "most of the martial arts claiming to fend off multiple attackers can't even handle themselves against 1, well trained attacker"

Peace,
kyle

 

[MJS]

Considering there are numerous BJJ schools out there, I'd imagine that there would be some differences in the way material is taught. That being said, I'd like to discuss how BJJ covers the area of weapons and more than one attacker. I recall that Royce put out a book which had some weapon defenses in there.

Are weapons and mult. attackers covered in your school? If they are, what methods of defense do you use?

Mike

Guys,

Just to remind everyone of the topic of the thread here. For the sake of discussion, I'm looking specifically to discuss BJJ and grappling related arts, and how they deal with mult. attackers and weapons. We've had some great replies and it would be even better if it would stay this way.

There are alot of grapplers on this forum. I posted this here, not to cause a flame, but instead to get a better idea as to how grapplers deal with these types of attacks.

Lets get back to some good discussion and refrain from the personal shots.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I don't know how all BJJ/GJJ schools train, but I guarantee you a legit Gracie Jiu-jitsu school teaching self defense aspects would not recommend Clinching with a guy, taking them down, armbarring them, or anything of that nature while their friends are stanfing by. thats just a bad idea. now, if you didn't see the friends, then no martial art is really going to help you. thats called "the circle of life" (enter Lion king theme) when you get into a fight and then get ambushed by two,three random friends outa nowhere.

besides, as Renzo Gracie says "most of the martial arts claiming to fend off multiple attackers can't even handle themselves against 1, well trained attacker"

Peace,
kyle

I've seen a few others mention the clinch. Now, in using this against more than one person, I'm guessing its not going to be the standard clinch that you'd see in a 1 on 1 match, but instead something along the lines of using the person briefly as a shield against the others, while at the same time delivering some shots to the person you're holding?

Mike

 

[Shogun]

Well, in that aspect, the clinch might not be a bad idea. but I was refering to grabbing the attacker and trying to bring hi to the ground. because in the scenario, the attacker's friends were not attacking. they were just on the sidelines. personally, just flipping out and headlocking and punching things seems like a logical choice when multiple person fighting. lol

 

[bujuts]

Guys,

Just to remind everyone of the topic of the thread here. For the sake of discussion, I'm looking specifically to discuss BJJ and grappling related arts, and how they deal with mult. attackers and weapons. We've had some great replies and it would be even better if it would stay this way.

There are alot of grapplers on this forum. I posted this here, not to cause a flame, but instead to get a better idea as to how grapplers deal with these types of attacks.

Lets get back to some good discussion and refrain from the personal shots.

Mike

Agreed. On that note, doesn't BJJ still employ breaking of joints even if on the feet? I don't know enough about BJJ to comment on its capacity to deliver power from the stance work, but it seems that since joints are the so well known by any BJJ player, destruction of joints whilst moving on the feet would come easy.

Comments?

Thanks,

Steven

 

[MJS]

Agreed. On that note, doesn't BJJ still employ breaking of joints even if on the feet? I don't know enough about BJJ to comment on its capacity to deliver power from the stance work, but it seems that since joints are the so well known by any BJJ player, destruction of joints whilst moving on the feet would come easy.

Comments?

Thanks,

Steven

With some modifications some of the locks and chokes can be applied standing.

On another note, we've been discussing mult. attackers, with defense including clinch work, avoidance, etc. I'd be interested in hearing a bit more on the lines of weapon defense. Stick, knife and gun being the most common three. What principles are used for these weapons?

 

[bujuts]

With some modifications some of the locks and chokes can be applied standing.

On another note, we've been discussing mult. attackers, with defense including clinch work, avoidance, etc. I'd be interested in hearing a bit more on the lines of weapon defense. Stick, knife and gun being the most common three. What principles are used for these weapons?

The gun is a whole animal in itself, and, lets face it, any empty handed system will not be of much help if someone truly wants to plug you. But, with that in mind, there are some principles that we should keep in mind.

1) The gun operates only in a single dimension (and for this reason, is inferior to the blade at close range). Control of the pistol demands control of the articulating hand, not just the arm. This is accomplished by straddling your grip over the wrist to immobilize the hand. A longer range weapon (shotgun, etc.) will likely be held with two hands, hopefully making redirection of the weapon easier.

2) It is unlikely that two hands will be used on the pistol if you're assaulted at close range. So, you have another limb to consider. Weapon fixation is a bad habit, and we must consider all of their weapons, not just the one that goes bang.

3) The line of fire should be kept in mind at all times. Its one thing to divert a pistol out of your way, its another to keep the bullet's trajectory away from your family behind you in addition to your own safety. This boils down to environmental awareness. Diverting the shot to an upward angle behind you is the safest insofar as protecting others is concerned, however this sort of manipulation is only available if the gun is roughly at chest level and close (under fifteen inches from you or so, based on my experience working this sort of defense)

4) Train to minimize the travel time of your arms to the weapon. I've personally tried it multiple times with a partner, using a (very) blank gun at each other's temple or forehead. There's simply not enough time to move before the attacker is aware of it and pulls the trigger. I was plugged numerous times attempting this. Its a little easier if its directly in front of you at chest level. If the gun is pressing into your head, you may use that to your advantage, however. More on that later, perhaps.

5) Its a fantasy to think that you're going to grab a revolver's hammer or a auto's slide in the process of your attack and prevent the pin from hitting the primer. Don't rely on this.

As for the knife:

1) Whether the knife is in a reverse or forward grip, the same control of the articulating wrist is mandatory.

2) In the reverse grip, the knife attacker has a greater capacity for manipulation and trapping, and can generate more physical power per cut. Any lack of control over the wrist will allow him to leverage his way out of hold on your forearm.

3) Disarming should be done by breaks and maiming. Do not attempt to submit and strip - its a fantasy. As an example: from the inside, an overhand break of the elbow may be accomplished from roughly the same motions as a chicken wing from a guard, but on a straight arm - shoot through with a rising elbow to the chin, and come crashing down with your bicep on the top of his elbow. Your arm that is controlling the wrist should be leveraging his arm up and rotating it to expose the joint. Its facilitated if you buckle his height with your knee into his leg. Its a nice and quick break from the inside, I wish I could show you, very difficult to describe.

4) Do not go into it with the thought that you will be cut. The only thing you should be thinking about is killing this human being (if the situation warrants him dying). Yes, you may be cut. But do not get into a cat and mouse game, trying to weave, dodge and avoid - you will likely be diced like sushi. Divert the initial attack and turn the tables. Become the attacker, put him into a state of co-contraction ASAP.

5) Again, do not become weapon fixated. Your attack should be focused on his skeleton, not the knife. Control the knife, keep it in front of you at all times, but attack the person wielding it.

6) Do not clinch. You are serving your throat on a silver platter.

7) Most importantly, know up front circumstances would lead you to hurt, maim, or kill another human being. Know this in terms of your own moral and ethical code, in context with the rules by which your actions will be judged (i.e. the law), and, in my opinion, before you step out of the door armed with the knowledge you possess. Do not deliberate on deadly matters in the middle of a fight.

One last thing on the subject of killing. This is a point of fantasy for many, I believe, and I contend too few take the time to maturely contemplate the implications of a bladed scenario. I will first disclaim that I have never done such a thing, and pray I never have to. But all ethical and moral discussions aside, the human body is very tough and there are very few ways to bring about a quick kill without a weapon. Something my teacher mentioned to me once that stuck with me: nothing is more dangerous than a human in the throngs of death. You remove an eyeball, collapse a trachea, you are putting someone in that state of being, the desperate state of co-contraction. All cards are now on the table, and its not a weekend bar scrap anymore. It may be that their intent wasn't so much to kill you as to just give you a quick stick in the belly so they can grab your wallet and leave you in a fetal position for a likely rescue. Now its different, now they want you 100% D-E-A-D, and if they think they're dying, that is pretty much all they're set on doing. The go bezerk, abondoning any concern for their own safety and ackolwedgement of pain - now you have real issues. Any failure to control the weapon and their body could result in you dying too. Sketchy stuff, this knife business.

I look forward to more input. Not enough time to address multiple assailants right now.

Thanks for reading,

Steven

 

[MJS]

Great post Steve. Thanks for taking the time to type out such a detailed reply!:ultracool

So, going on what was said in the above post, do the BJJ weapon disarms take these ideas into consideration or is something else done?

Mike

 

[RoninPimp]

2) It is unlikely that two hands will be used on the pistol if you're assaulted at close range. So, you have another limb to consider. Weapon fixation is a bad habit, and we must consider all of their weapons, not just the one that goes bang.

-I would argue that 2 hands on his weapon hand is still the best way to go. You may eat a few strikes from his free hand but 2 of your hands on his is still your best chance to disarm. Worrying about his free hand having a knife is a bit of a red herring to me. That would be unlikely imo as he would be focussed on his most powerful weapon. You should be too imo.

6) Do not clinch. You are serving your throat on a silver platter.

-This I don't understand. If you are grabbing his weapon hand you are clinched.

 

[RoninPimp]

Great post Steve. Thanks for taking the time to type out such a detailed reply!:ultracool

So, going on what was said in the above post, do the BJJ weapon disarms take these ideas into consideration or is something else done?

Mike

-I think so, more or less. I've heard many of those things before. The BJJ weapon disarms are all based around the "Kimura" or "Americana" grip aka "Ude Garami". This does require both hands but is very strong once locked in. The hard part is getting the grip before you get shot or stabbed. The Red Zone stuff I've seen is primarily based on the 2-on-1 to a Russian tie from wrestling. Both approaches are viable imo. Both are legitimate clinch techniques. Empty hands vs. weapons is basically clinch techniques focussed on controlling the weapon hand at all costs. With the clinch come all the knees, headbutts, and throws you can do while controlling their weapon hand. And in the case of a firearm, paying attention to the where the muzzle is pointing.

 

[Marvin]

I think red zone and S.T.A.B. are both real good weapon defence set ups. Both are set up to put control on the attacker not the weapon.

 

[Marvin]

-I think so, more or less. I've heard many of those things before. The BJJ weapon disarms are all based around the "Kimura" or "Americana" grip aka "Ude Garami". This does require both hands but is very strong once locked in. The hard part is getting the grip before you get shot or stabbed. The Red Zone stuff I've seen is primarily based on the 2-on-1 to a Russian tie from wrestling.

The STAB stuff starts from the premise that you have already been stabbed and you work to control the situation after that.

 

[bujuts]

I'm not a great grappler, so I don't know enough to make any general statements about a "grappler's approach" to these kinds of things. But, once you have control, be it with one or both of your hands, what kind of attack are you inclined to deliver? Do you need them on the ground before you can start executing serious damage? Would you as a grappler still prefer submission? What are your thoughts on striking? What will you hit and with what weapons on your body? What vital targets do you train? How will your footwork keep you out of hot water if there are potentially other threats nearby? Can your lethal moves (generally breaking the neck is about the only realistic option) be executed on your feet? Are your techniques diminished in any capacity if the assailant feels no pain?

Thanks in advance, look forward to any responses.

Steven Brown

 

[RoninPimp]

I'm not a great grappler, so I don't know enough to make any general statements about a "grappler's approach" to these kinds of things. But, once you have control, be it with one or both of your hands, what kind of attack are you inclined to deliver? Do you need them on the ground before you can start executing serious damage? Would you as a grappler still prefer submission? What are your thoughts on striking? What will you hit and with what weapons on your body? What vital targets do you train? How will your footwork keep you out of hot water if there are potentially other threats nearby? Can your lethal moves (generally breaking the neck is about the only realistic option) be executed on your feet? Are your techniques diminished in any capacity if the assailant feels no pain?

Thanks in advance, look forward to any responses.

Steven Brown

-Once control is established, attack can be knees, headbutts, throws...And they can all be done standing. Targets can be the groin, thighs, abdomen. I would say a submission is secondary to disarming. Footwork would be all about constantly moving with multiples. I would argue that a "neck break" is very hard to do and low percentage. Chokes, knockouts, and joint locks are not pain dependant. They work whether the guy feels the pain or not.

 

[MJS]

I agree with the Red Zone and STAB material. I've seen both and IMHO, its alot better than some things I've seen.

I also agree that the 2 hands grabbing approach is important. Getting control first and then working a counter certainly makes sense.

Mike

 

[bujuts]

I also agree that the 2 hands grabbing approach is important. Getting control first and then working a counter certainly makes sense.
Mike

Fair enough. Of course, everything is circumstantial, and there are no exact rules to follow. I'd like to offer a scenario to continue this discussion, so we can perhaps drill down into some of the details on different people's approaches, and more specifically on the use of one or two hands.

The attack is a classic prison shanking, someone looking to run into you hard and fast, raising a knife, screwdriver, etc. into your belly with repeated thrusts. He's coming in like a freight train with enough force to poke your spine through your small intestines, and he wants to make a pin cushion out of you, drop the weapon, and keep going.

This is not an easy attack to deal with. For the sake of the discussion, assume the following: 1) you see it coming, 2) you're in a bad area with others around, but who aren't necessarily attacking you at the moment but warrant your caution, 3) you have no time to do anything but deal with the attacker, 4) there's nothing nearby to use as a weapon, 5) you are on asphalt or concrete, 6) you're alone, 7) he appears to you that his intent is to kill, 8) running is not an option.

A few things to consider. 1) with the knife close to his body, elbows in, he is going to have some stability and power behind that stab. The attack not the classical, extended, unrealistic, off balance single thrust that is every martial artists wet dream. 2) you are not only dealing with the knife coming at you, but his mass as well.

I will leave the discussion at that, and let you guys take over. What grappling principles might be used here? What do you consider major do's and don'ts?

Thanks, look forward to any replies.

Steven Brown

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

The Machado's did a great training video for this very situation called Brazilian Brawl. I suggest it to everyone, it took my training to the next level.

I'm no expert of weapon defense, but I love hypothetical questions so I'll answer anyway. If he stabs me once I'm assuming I'm probably going to die, so I have to get control of the hand with the weapon first and foremost. If I can get reasonable control I'd try for an armdrag to a harness and go for a slam, because it is a powerful takedown that is set up from wrist control. As soon as he is down I would try and get control of the weapon. If that wasn't possible I would go for a submission on whatever arm was controling it, because that would maximize both control of the limb and my offensive potential.

That said, I don't think my chances of surviving injury free are very good.

 

[green meanie]

That said, I don't think my chances of surviving injury free are very good.

I don't think anyone's chances of surviving injury free are very good. To simply survive is about the best anyone can hope for.

 

[bujuts]

...I have to get control of the hand with the weapon first and foremost. If I can get reasonable control I'd try for an armdrag to a harness and go for a slam, because it is a powerful takedown that is set up from wrist control. As soon as he is down I would try and get control of the weapon. If that wasn't possible I would go for a submission on whatever arm was controling it, because that would maximize both control of the limb and my offensive potential.

What about attacking via hitting? I recognize that BJJ's speciality is obviously grappling, but I believe its important to recognize the criticality of taking the fight out of him ASAP. Throwing, clinching, or getting to a submission all take critical time, and you may not have that luxury. Drive your knuckles into his eyebrows, finger(s) into his eye(s), etc., and do so an a selective angle to attack a dimension, i.e. get a specific result such as rocking the head backwards, or turning it to the side to reduce his ability to rotate on the axis of his spine.

We should also recognize that we do not need to be necessarily grabbing the offending arm in order to control it. Use of proper bracing angles off the initial deflection or block can be used to press the arm into him. For control, press in above his elbow - blocking below the elbow leaves some unwanted variability.
Grab the arm after the first strike, and if you've got a hold of his arm, whether from the inside or the outside, a break should not be difficult. It does require, however, the ability to deliver breaking power through your stance work.

There's a particular mantra our group works when dealing with a knife, either as blade against blade or defending empty hand against blade. Its the three D's: Deflect, Dominate, and Destroy. Striking becomes vital in my opinion, as it is the quickest method of attack and cone be done simultaneously with your initial block or deflection. Follow it up immediately with grabs and locks as needed, but I hold the opinion that the attacker must be attacked, and his ability / desire to fight must be taken out of him in the process of gaining control.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Steven Brown