Down block defense against shoot attack

[DavidCC]

Being in or out of the ring does not magically make a low percentage technique higher in percentage.

The factors that work against this technique in the ring work against it on the street as well. The laws of physics do not change. Forward momentum is forward momentum.

Being in the ring makes some thing illegal.

What technique are you talking about?

 

[arnisador]

Either I misunderstood and we are talking about strictly ring-allowed techniques, or you need to "think outside the box", my friend

I didn't think we were talking about only ring-allowed techniques. But I also don't think there's a magic way to get him to turn around that momentum. This is a pretty committed move. You could knock him out and he'd still be falling into you.

 

[allenjp]

I am a huge proponent of SD realistic training instead of ring training, and on this point I must agree...like I said before, ya just GOTTA move your feet, or you're going to be in trouble. Now if you want to combine that with another type of attack, have at it. But it's gonna be pretty hard to knock someone out in the limited time you have before they get your legs if you don't MOVE...

 

[DavidCC]

I didn't think we were talking about only ring-allowed techniques. But I also don't think there's a magic way to get him to turn around that momentum. This is a pretty committed move. You could knock him out and he'd still be falling into you.

I'm not saying "no footwork",
but how much can he reverse his own momentum, if he was so inclined?

 

[allenjp]

Once he's commited? Not much, that's precisely the point. That is the exact weak point of the shot as an offensive technique, and why people spend so much time training it. Once you have commited to it, you're wide open for punishment until you close the distance, because you really can't change your momentum or direction much once you've commited. That is why it is hard to deflect or deter them unless they are not good "shooters".

 

[DavidCC]

So the skilled shooters lose balance and control of their own movement, but the crappy ones do not?

 

[allenjp]

No.

Being unable to change direction in the middle of a shoot is not about losing control of your balance, it's a matter of being commited and already throwing your weight behind it. If someone cannot pull out or change direction in the middle of a shoot, it is not because he does not have control, that is just the nature of the technique. It would be like trying to stop a powerful kick in mid delivery when the leg is already extended. Not easy to do.

When I compare a good shooter to one who is not good, I am referring to the fact that one who does not know that technique well is likely to start a shoot at the wrong moment, or from too far away, or to telegraph his intentions for said shoot. This is the person that is more likely to leave himself vulnerable to an attack such as a downblock on the back of his head or neck.

Have you ever trained in proper shooting technique? If you have not, believe me it is not as simple or easy as it looks, and is not as easy to defend against as it looks either. The most effective defense against a well trained leg shooter is a properly timed sprawl or at least a side step movement, period. (good luck on that side step though) As I said before, if you want to add an attack to that, be my guest. It may make it more effective. But do not let that attack interfere with your foot movement as that is the most important.

 

[arnisador]

It's a pretty committed technique, but you may still be able to angle off to the forward side if need be--this was a common tactic of the Gracies in challenge matches. If a strike is coming in you may be able to make it a single leg variant off to one side.

Then again, you might not manage this. Once you bend your legs to drop your height and start putting your knee forward, you are falling into it. A punhc to the face may bend you back but your torso is still falling into it. Hands alone are unlikely to do it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Eh...I doubt it. This is a pretty committed move, and they 'll be able to take most blows on the hard part of their skull. Try it against a BJJer or wrestler.

If it were that easy, it'd have made it into the MMA world.

Very true.

Another problem with this type of a defense and I am not saying that it could not work just that it is not a high probability move. (read low probability) However here is the major problems. For a down block to work you the blocking person must have stability in other words you have to have strong structure and framework. Most of the time when someone shoots in if they know what they are doing they come in when their opponent is either stepping forward and placing weight on their lead foot or when they have maneuvered their opponent back on their heels. Now if they just stepped forward and place quite a lot of weight on that lead leg they could conceivable down block but they would not have the coordination of leg, hips, arm, etc. If they are back on their heels then a down block would be well not very effective at all.

Good evasive footwork and a strong sprawl will go a long way in defending takedowns. Those are higher percentage moves.

 

[allenjp]

All that said I have seen guys eat knees when shooting in before, and that did not look at all comfortable...

 

[arnisador]

That can happen, but as mentioned, someone who knows what he is doing will set up the move to make that hard. You also don't go in with your arms way out so they could help intercept a knee, possibly.

There is a reason the Gracie challenge was so successful, and a variation of the double or single leg takedown was a reasonably common opening technique...wait out a few kicks, catch them falling onto their lead foot and off-balance, and dive for that (or both) feet.