We are kicking butt here with no moderator...

[Bob Hubbard]

ok...I'm going to address 3 points here.

1- The warning.

Your recent postings in this thread: Thread Title

Thread Link

have been unacceptable by Martial Talk standards. You have been rude,
insulting, inflammatory, and outright disrepectful. This PM is to inform
you that not only have your posting practices and behavior been
unacceptable, they will no longer be tolerated. You are on notice that
continuation of this pattern will see you suspended if not banned from
Martial Talk.

This is a standard formletter we use.
That notice, and a variant were sent to I believe 6 or 7 individuals.
There were I believe 3 suspensions.

Was it a bit 'too harsh'? Perhaps.
Was it overkill? Maybe.
We are discussing those issues within the staff.

However, there were at least -2- moderator warnings to curb the heat, and they were ignored. I believe someone even went so far as to declare one of our staff wasn't worth listening to because of their rank. That brings me to


#2 "Anyone with sense could readily see that Master Lugo nor I were disrespectful."

Maybe....and anyone with sense would have obeyed the moderator warnings. I'm sorry, but if someone calls you an *** here, the proper procedure is to report it, not fire back. Your rank does not give you any special privilages. Your money doesn't give you any special power. Acting like children will not work here. I don't care if you are the son of the GM, a 10th degree, 40 year veteran, heir to the Kingdom of Gondor, and RingBearer to Sauron.....we are all equal under the rules here.

We've suspended staff, my own instructor has been suspended, as has Seigs..hell, I'VE! been suspended too. We didn't whine about it, stamp our feet and take our little balls n go off...we took it like men and moved forward.

You folks who want to storm off in a huff....theres an old saying "Don't let the door hit you on the *** on the way out.".

This brings me to point #3:

#3: "We blew it as a community on another forum and now we ruined for ourselves here."

No, you didn't.
A few individuals did, but the majority of you are still more than welcome here. We simply will not tollerate the political ********, sniping, backstabbing, posturing and "weenie-comparing" that seems to be a serious problem in the Korean arts.

Now, if that crap doesn't stop, then, yes, the KMA section will vanish...and not just here. I've talked to several other BBS admins, and we are -ALL- sick and tired of this crap. We've decided, it stops. Otherwise, the only place you'll find KMA is in some ad-infested Yahoo group.


Now, I've watched several videos, and talked with a number of KMA practitioners..I know theres more stuff in there than the crap thats flared up. Why doesn't everyone stop worrying about the politics, and just compare notes on the techniques, variations, concepts, ideas and meaning found in their respective lineages?

 

[shesulsa]

I'll have everyone reading this know that one post of mine, because it was addressed directly to an individual and was firmly worded, raised an eyebrow or two.

There is not one of us who is immune to making mistakes. Let me illustrate my point a bit more clearly.

Hypothetical statement:

If you're upset because I made a statement you don't like then tough willies. You clearly don't know what you're talking about and to say that I don't is just wrong.

A differently-worded statement:

Should a person disagree with my statements, then that is their perogative; we simply don't see eye-to-eye.

I don't think it's too difficult to see where one remark could be construed as inflammatory and the other more neutral. When one makes one's own points as neutral as possible without using inflammatory language, it is difficult to be accused of sniping or flaming.

EVEN THE BEST OF INTENDED STATEMENTS - EVEN TRUE, FACTUAL STATEMENTS - WILL COME OFF AS INFLAMMATORY SHOULD THE INDICATOR USE "YOU" STATEMENTS AND SUCH.

This is what gets well-meant posts the raised eyebrow.

I invite you all to examine your wording style and increase your nettiquette awareness as I have just refreshed on mine, and continue posting towards a more positively-stated discourse.

With all due respect and consideration,

Georgia

 

[kwanjang]

Master Rustaz writes:
"#2 "Anyone with sense could readily see that Master Lugo nor I were disrespectful."

Maybe....and anyone with sense would have obeyed the moderator warnings. I'm sorry, but if someone calls you an *** here, the proper procedure is to report it, not fire back. Your rank does not give you any special privilages. Your money doesn't give you any special power. Acting like children will not work here. I don't care if you are the son of the GM, a 10th degree, 40 year veteran, heir to the Kingdom of Gondor, and RingBearer to Sauron.....we are all equal under the rules here.
End snip.

As my last post, I point out that I NEVER had a moderator warn me here or anywhere else. In fact, I addressed one of my posts to Georgia regarding this matter to clear this up, and I never received a reply.

I did not report the original issue because I felt it was not necessary, and I never "fired back". This is not about rank or seniority, and I NEVER saw (never mind MADE) any comments regarding these things. In fact, I have NO IDEA why Lugo and I received such a nasty notice. Nothing in ANY of my posts on this forum warranted such a nasty notice. If anything, I was a victim of some verbal abuse, and I chose to ignore it (someone else spoke up about that post); however, I can not ignore unwarranted accusations from your moderator, he showed even less respect than was used in the post that started all the troubles.

Respect goes both ways, and this notice we received showed NO respect at all (regardless of rank, age, or seniority). I never asked for, nor expected to be treated different because of these things, where do you get that idea???) I post here for the same reason YOU have the forum to begin with (I think)... to be of help. I have NO agenda other than that. I joined this forum because it appeared to be a great place to discuss martial arts. That a few individuals get "carried away" a bit is no reason to have one of your moderators send of a note such as the one Lugo and I received. I joined THIS forum to get away from such nonsense, and I totally agree it IS nonsense.

Sure you can call me a kid who wants to take his ball home and run. To me, this is just a cop out. I am not leaving because someone disagrees with me, I am leaving because the forum moderator who wrote me a private message showed a total lack of manners with your apparent approval. No one needs to be treated like a kid, and I simply won't stick around ANY group whose moderators use such poor judgement.

In closing, I realize we are all guests here, and to tell me not to let the door hit my butt on the way out is your call. It is your show, and you can do whatever you wish. I still think this forum is a good venue for martial artists, and I DO wish you all the best. Given your drive to do something good for martial arts, I would take another look at the moderator in question though. I think you and he are not on the same page. Thanks for allowing me to reply to your post.

 

[MJS]

I'll agree with Kaith here. If you're having a problem with someone, RTM, or use some of the other features such as:

1- Email

2- PM

3- Ignore

Disagreements are definately going to happen. I've had them myself. But, by feeding into the disagreement, is going to do nothing but continue to cause a flame.

Be the better person and keep the discussions friendly.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The moderator in question here, is a well respected member of the Kenpo community, and one of the most level-headed individuals I know. There was a discussion on the issues, incidents etc surrounding that thread, and various angles were examined. Mr. Billings was the senior staff member on duty, and as such drew the job of issuing the warnings. (General fyi - Only supermods and admins currently are allowed to issue pm/email warnings, and only admins are currently allowed to issue suspensions and bans. All moderators may at their discretion issue in-thread warnings.) The warnings posted in-thread, tend towards the softer, more generic side, and apply to everyone.

If there is an issue with received warnings/suspensions, the person to take the problem up with is Mike Seigel (Seig). Not post it publically in an "I quit" post. We tend to have no patience for such things. I have always made myself available to all of our members (I have the phone bills to show for it too) to discuss issues and ideas for improvement.

MartialTalk is for the friendly exchange of ideas, sharing of knowledge and the fellowship people on similar journeys can build. Now, I will personally reread that thread. It will take some time as it is a long one, but I will go through it carefully, and make my own determinations. I will compare that with what my staff determined, and if needed, take corrective action. I will also discuss this issue with Seig, and point him to this thread so that he can address what needs to be addressed.

 

[kwanjang]

...If there is an issue with received warnings/suspensions, the person to take the problem up with is Mike Seigel (Seig). Not post it publically in an "I quit" post. We tend to have no patience for such things. I have always made myself available to all of our members (I have the phone bills to show for it too) to discuss issues and ideas for improvement...

Hello Master Rustaz:
I am relatively new to this forum, and as such I have no idea how things work here. This thing came out of nowhere as far as I am concerned, and I thought that the issue had been dealt with by the parties themselves. If it was not dealt with properly according to your rules, perhaps an informative email by Georgia (to whom I posted about this) would have sufficed.

What I did get was a PM from someone who is supposed to be level headed but used much stronger language and accusations than the persons involved ever did. You say you tend to have no patience with public postings on the issue, but you fail to recognize the dismay Lugo and I felt about getting a PM that was less than stellar to say the least. It is no small wonder we vented our frustations in the only way we know how. I am not a computer whiz, and I know very little more than to send a simple post.

I think that, if you read all the posts, you will see yourself that Lugo nor I made comments that were rude. We simply asked pointed questions about the direction some folks wanted to take on an issue that I was invited to assist in. The answers were not fortcoming and very confusing (even Georgia said as much), and therefore the questions had to become a bit more pointed.

In any case, I truly do appreciate your efforts to look into this issue. If I was truly rude and disrespectful, I will be the first to apologize to all forum members. Since I did not get to read the last posts on the offending thread, I am totally in the dark about what happened. BTW, I made this reply because I received a notice of the last post via email.

 

[shesulsa]

Kwan Jang Nim, please allow me.

As my last post, I point out that I NEVER had a moderator warn me here or anywhere else. In fact, I addressed one of my posts to Georgia regarding this matter to clear this up, and I never received a reply.

To address your concerns, sir, I would say that the PM you received was a warning - nothing more, nothing less. As to replying to your post addressed to me, I thought I made myself clear when 1. the moderator general warnings were posted and 2. I stated it was increasingly difficult to act as a moderator when I became involved in the discussion. I also nudged the other members towards a more civil discussion repeatedly. To respond to you in a moderator format after having enganged in the conversation as a member would have been inappropriate.

If anything, I was a victim of some verbal abuse, and I chose to ignore it (someone else spoke up about that post); however, I can not ignore unwarranted accusations from your moderator, he showed even less respect than was used in the post that started all the troubles.

After reading your last post, please let me give you a few pointers... First, there is a Newbies forum (forums to help newcomers to the site) that has a bunch of great information to aid you in understanding the software a little more. You should know something really important and convenient is the little red triangle at the top right of each post (except for your own) on every thread. I pointed this out in the thread which is now closed. It is called the RTM feature. Any slanderous, accusatory, flaming, rude or just plain offensive posts should be reported and any member can do it. I really encourage everyone to use this feature rather than engage in heated arguments on the board because this, as you can see, is the consequence and well-meaning people might be warned - or even suspended. I really hate when those who have so much to offer would rather hold their own in the thread than report it to the team, which can deal with it more effectively.

I joined this forum because it appeared to be a great place to discuss martial arts. That a few individuals get "carried away" a bit is no reason to have one of your moderators send of a note such as the one Lugo and I received. I joined THIS forum to get away from such nonsense, and I totally agree it IS nonsense.

One of the reasons it is such a great place to discuss martial arts is because the owner is fair. Everyone - EVERYONE - has repeated chances to prove themselves. He has, I think, an excellent system in place where even he is not above reproach and anyone contributing in any way towards negativity will be dealt with accordingly.

Really, a warning is just that - a warning.

Kom Map Sam Ni Da for reading.

GK

 

[Seig]

I am going to be addressing these posts about the warnings and suspension. I alone decided who would be suspended and who would receive the generic PM warning sent out by MY STAFF. I determined that you had in fact been disrespectful. It does not matter to me who belongs where, disrespect is disrespect. I do not tolerate it in my home, at work, in my studio, or on this board. I tolerate threats even less.
Mr Billings is not only one of my Super Moderators, he is my friend, my senior in Kenpo (like an uncle), but he is also sometimes my voice of reason. I am close to all of the SuperMods. He did not choose the wording of the warning, it is a generic template I created during the Kenpo and Arnis wars that occurred on this board. I have not had reason to change it. Let me reiterate Bob's point, ONLY SUPERMODS AND ADMINS CAN PM OR E-MAIL WARNINGS. Georgia did the right thing, she posted in thread warnings, they were ignored. She realized she was too close to the issue and escalated it. I happened to be the one on when it was escalated. I read the entire thread in question, there were in excess of twenty rules violations. I suspended the main three and then directed Michael Billings to issue warnings to the other people involved in it. We have an anti-sniping policy that allows me to suspend anyone at any time for insulting or insinuating an insult at anyone. I chose to go with the warning instead.
In the future, if you disagree with the actions of my staff, bring it to my attention privately, I am approachable and will discourse with almost anyone. It really irritates me when someone publicly attacks one of my staff, they are volunteers that receive no compensation for what they do other than the knowledge that we have the best damn board out there thanks to them.
If you have issues, talk to me.
Seig
MT Ops Admin

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok...I read through that thread. Here is my take on it.

I went through, post by post looking for heat. I found quite a bit, usually just a little dig/sarcasm here and there, often quickly worked through. In a few cases, I found people complaining about a shot that I couldn't see. A good portion of that thread is filled with the type of discussion and debate I hoped for here. There were some specifics however that stood out.

There were 2 moderator warnings placed in-thread. The latter at #277 I believe. At about #290 (or there abouts) the thread rapidly went into a downward spiral, trying to right itself, but failing.

I found several violations of our sniping policy, circumventions of our profanity filter, and at least 2 outright cases of disrespect to our staff.

While I did not see every incident that Seig did, when I compared my notes to his, what I found was on his list. Many of the issues he and others saw fell below my personal 'radar', and at times the reading was difficult due to the way some people replied.

These warnings were just that, warnings. No one has been banned at this time, and I personally would prefer to keep it that way. However, Based on what I've seen in those comments, the reports that came in, the discussion in the staff forums, and a brief review elsewhere on several posters 'communication style' I believe the wording in our warning template may need revisiting. I can fully understand the anger many felt receiving those particular form letters. I react similarly when I get the ones that say "Because you have not replied to previous notices", and I'd been in contact weekly with the sender.


After my review, I've come to 2 conclusions.
1 - Is that their judgement in determining there were problems, and a course of action were sound.
2 - We need to examine the templates we use for issuing warnings and determine if we need to do some additions/modifications.

I realize that within the KMA community there are a number of hot issues. I don't have a problem with the discussion of them, provided the discussion remains professional. The little barbs, pointed sarcasm, outright shots, etc however cannot be tolerated here. I personally have little patience for the posturing I've personally experienced when dealing with the KMA community. 7 out of the last 12 legal threats to this site, and myself have come from the KMA community. 1 individual threatened to sue if I didn't ban another member immediately, when said member had done nothing wrong here at that time. MartialTalk is open to anyone who can follow our policies. We try to give everyone as many chances as we can here. It's why we have the warning/suspension/ban policy, whereas many other boards just boot those they don't like at whim.

In reading through that thread, I can see the passion that all those involved have for their art. Please, keep the passion, but temper it with professionalism. There is an idea for a family tree, and to define what the core of the art is...independantly of politics and federations. Well, I propose you have such a vehicle, here. MT is what you, our members make of it. I simply provide a space, and a staff to maintain it. You make it what it is. Please, make it the premier place for the KMA, where beginner and master can come together, peacefully, in fellowship.

:asian:

 

[howard]

may i just say that i believe kwanjangnim was consistently quite civil and respectful in the thread under question, particularly in view of some of the barbs directed at him. i also read posts frequently by kwanjangnim on another forum (dojang digest), and there too his behavior is exemplary. he and i have exchanged a couple of messages on that forum, and i have always found him to be polite and constructive, not to mention very knowledgeable about the art of hapkido, and very open-minded to accepting the validity of the many strains of the art that have evolved since choi young sool formalized the art after WW2.

i am not trying to second-guess anybody here - i'm merely offering my impressions of what i've seen.

to the administrative staff, i would simply ask that you review the posts by kwanjangnim carefully to confirm your conclusions. this is your board, and we all must abide by the rules. but i will offer a vote of confidence in kwanjangnim.

to kwanjangnim, i'd simply ask that you reconsider your decision not to post here in the future. this is an excellent forum, well managed, with many knowledgeable members. your posts are consistently well worth reading, and your decades of knowledge are a hugely valuable resource to all of us. i can understand your chagrin, but i for one implore you to reconsider your decision to leave.

with respect to all concerned, howard

 

[Dusty]

Sajanim Timmerman. i too ask that you continue in your posts. i joined this forum specifically because i wanted to hear what you had to say on these matters.this is my first post, but i have been reading what you have to say, plus everyone else with much enjoyment. it is nice to see everyone with so much passion and enthusiasm for Hapkido.

Master Rustaz_ i do not feel that anything that Master Timmerman has said was an intentional dig barb or shot at anyone. i feel that he has conducted himself accordinly considering some of the statements made to him. he is one to tell it like it is. he never sugar coats things to save someones feelings.
i recall a few months back another poster taking many shots at him and other than a few sarcastic responses, he basically ignored this person until he went away.
enough said, lets get back to the real issues - Hapkido
With respect, Dusty, Sabum

 

[Kumbajah]

I very much agree with Howard and Dusty's sentiments. I hope very much that GM Timmerman choses to stick around. I am also part of the group Dojang Digest. I have always found his posts there, informative and he gives freely of himself. My rant was not directed towards him.

Brian

 

[kwanjang]

I wish to thank those who have posted here and sent me some private messages, and I also wish to thank Master Rustaz for digging into the thread a bit more. Frankly, I had not expected that, it is most certainly very much appreciated, and it conforms my belief that this is a good and fair forum (which BTW I never wavered on and stated as much).

I believe Master Lugo and myself reacted to the particular tone of the message that was sent to us, and perhaps something good came out of that now Master Rustaz plans to review its wording. I believe that this particular message might do well if it was directed to someone who blatantly and continuously disregards the forum rules; however, a milder "first" version simply explaining the rules to MT newbies like Master Lugo and I would perhaps work better.

I believe that neither one of us thougth we had done anything wrong, and your warning took me for one by total surprise; hence, my reaction to it was no doubt too strong. As a long time volunteer in martial arts, I appreciate the thankless job of moderators, and I understand your tendency to protect these folks. I believe no one here minded the warnings, we were simply taken back by the wording of it. I actually believed that the "in thread" warnings were adhered to by Master Lugo and myself before these warnings were sent, and I think review will bear this out.

My sole reason for participating in forums such as these is to repay the assistence I have enjoyed over the years, and to help martial artists and martial arts in general in return. After reading the private messages I received, as well as the last few posts here, it appears that I may have been of some small help to a few folks. With Master Rustaz's permission, I would like to continue to post here, and I ask Master Lugo to do the same. This is a New Year, and we can do no less than try our best to improve ourselves. With this, I offer my apologies for unknowingly posting offensive messages. No offense was meant, and I should have made myself more familliar with the rules of this forum before writing them. Best wishes to everyone for the New Year, and thanks again for your kindness.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Gentlemen,
You are all most definately still welcome here, and I do hope you will continue to post. I would personally love to see the KMA areas grow and expand in size.
We are working on some changes to our templates to better cover things in the future.

Thank you, and Happy New Year to everyone.

:asian:

 

[Black Belt FC]

Kwanjang Timmerman,



If you’re satisfied with proposed improvement than I'm also. My contributions are not as insightful as your postings but hope somehow I can make a difference. I invite Master Whalen my senior to do the same.





Lugo

 

[jfarnsworth]

Gentlemen.

Happy new year. :asian:

 

[shesulsa]

*Bows*

Georgia Ketchmark

 

[kwanjang]

Master Lugo:
I am glad you will continue to work toward making Korean arts fun and enjoyable for all. I too hope that Master Whalen will continue to post here, and I thank the forum staff for making this possible.

 

[Paul B]

Mr. Timmerman and Mst. Lugo,

Thanks for sticking around! This is a better forum for having you two onboard.