WC with throws and takedowns....

[Domino]

I thought it would be this video
I would also add Sifu Chung Kwok Chow who has a system in throws/ground fighting.

 

[StormShadow]

All styles of Chinese martial arts have kicking, punching, qinna and shuaijiao to varying degrees

I've also heard and read this as well

 

[geezer]

This... makes my eyes dirty.

I hate that feeling, especially when I'm wearing my contact lenses. Try rinsing with "Refresh Liquid Tears" .

WZP is implementing Shuai Jiao into his WC. While i would relish the opportunity to train SJ, to me it does not have much place in WC.

Yeah, ...he swiches from WC to Shuai Jiao pretty seamlessly. Looks cool and he seems to make it work, but they are two very distinct arts. I wonder if WZP teaches them together or separately. With such different underlying conceptual bases, objectives, and methods of using energy, I cannot imagine teaching them as one blended art.

Grappling of any kind by it's nature uses it's COG in a way totally incompatible with WC's aims and structural boundaries. We're "anti-wrestlers" as it were (you can't hook my limbs or touch my COG).

The "grappling" we do in our NVTO system is strictly designed to escape and recover to a WC structure and range. On the other hand, many of our attacks in Lat Sau, Chi sau, and Guo sau/sparring can just as easily terminate in a sweep or throw as with a knock-down using strikes ...well, OK, actually, they usually have both. But whatever the case, I think we'd agree that you can certainly knock, sweep or throw your opponent to the floor without abandoning core WC/VT/WT principles ...or does HFY differ in that regard?

 

[Eric_H]

I hate that feeling, especially when I'm wearing my contact lenses. Try rinsing with "Refresh Liquid Tears" .

You got an "lol" out of me on that one

The "grappling" we do in our NVTO system is strictly designed to escape and recover to a WC structure and range. On the other hand, many of our attacks in Lat Sau, Chi sau, and Guo sau/sparring can just as easily terminate in a sweep or throw as with a knock-down using strikes ...well, OK, actually, they usually have both. But whatever the case, I think we'd agree that you can certainly knock, sweep or throw your opponent to the floor without abandoning core WC/VT/WT principles ...or does HFY differ in that regard?

As a disclaimer, sweeps and takedowns are not throws, so we're comparing apples and oranges a bit here. There are certainly ways to knock the opponent down, we use a lot of Gwai Ma (knee function) for leg destruction which usually results in the other guy falling, or a faat sao to the 3rd eye if you've achieved a position of advantage (not straight on) can be used as a takedown. Neither of these require body to body contact though. That's one of the big characteristics of throws to me, coming from a JJJ background.

 

[blindsage]

Wing Chun isn't rigid in its stances but it is very clear on facing the opponent and wide impractical and immobile stances just do not figure in the system.

A stance, or really a transitional position, that does not "fit in" to Wing Chun isn't necessarily either impractical or immobile. There are more practical and mobile positions, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your Wing Chun philosophy.

 

[WingChunIan]

A stance, or really a transitional position, that does not "fit in" to Wing Chun isn't necessarily either impractical or immobile. There are more practical and mobile positions, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your Wing Chun philosophy.

There is a reason why the long low type of stances demonstrated by WZP in the first video are never seen in any form of competitive sports combat where throws are allowed. These things look very pretty and work on compliant partners but fail epic-ly against someone actually resisting and hitting back.

 

[WingChunIan]

Im not a WC person, so i cant speak for the quality of it, but this popped up from a search. It has takedowns in it. Lots of takedowns. From my viewers eye it looks a bit more like WC, and less like a Judo-WC hybrid.

Don't like the slap fest that precedes every take down but I would agree that some of these moves are akin to what I have been taught (and can all be found in the forms), however as another poster suggested I wouldn't class face rips, neck cranks and trips as throws per se.

 

[blindsage]

There is a reason why the long low type of stances demonstrated by WZP in the first video are never seen in any form of competitive sports combat where throws are allowed. These things look very pretty and work on compliant partners but fail epic-ly against someone actually resisting and hitting back.

Weird, 'cause a lot of these sure do look like the throws he's practicing.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Good vid. I've been wrestling and doing MA for 21 years now, and by god if that isn't a good blend.

I see a lot of people on this thread saying many negative things about the throws. Well, wing tsun has room for improvement people. We aren't just fighting against Choy-lay-fut or Hung-Gar anymore. Not only do we need to know HOW to counter the throws from the MMA world; We should also be well versed in them.

And for people saying he "shouldn't have" done the throw in that manner, or the partner was just being cooprative; there are only two things that a successful throw needs "Speed, and mis-direction". And that is from a grapplers mouth.

Great vid Geezer!

 

[WingChunIan]

Weird, 'cause a lot of these sure do look like the throws he's practicing.

You're watching a different clip to me. That clip just illustrated perfectly my point. All were judo or wrestling moves executed from a natural mobile stance, most were inner or outer reaps or hip throws performed with very small movements of the legs and hips. Absolutely no long low stances or large flowery circular moves as demonstrated by WZP. trying to say that they are the same thing is nonsense (its like saying that WC and CLF punches are the same and the kind of throws demonstrated by WZP would get laughed at in judo and wrestling clubs across the world.

 

[WingChunIan]

And for people saying he "shouldn't have" done the throw in that manner, or the partner was just being cooprative; there are only two things that a successful throw needs "Speed, and mis-direction". And that is from a grapplers mouth.

Really.......leverage / cog control, balance, timing....mis-direction isn't always necessary if the opponent compromises their own balance.

 

[geezer]

Really.......leverage / cog control, balance, timing....mis-direction isn't always necessary if the opponent compromises their own balance.

True enough. Basically we use many of the same techniques that we use in WC/VT/WT to "borrow the force" of your opponent when striking. For example, when your opponent overcommits, we go with his force and even augment it by adding on our own. If he senses his overcommitment and pulls back, we help him with a push, like playing with a yo-yo. As my old sifu LT liked to say, if a man falls in a well drop a stone on him!

But to give Jeff credit, getting a guy to overcommit or overreact is mis-direction. Same in grappling as striking. You know, you push him, he pushes back and you drop under and shoot, duck-under ...or whatever. Get him to reach for you, and arm-drag him. Twist him one way, then when he resists, throw him to the other side. It's the art of setting him up. A lot of that in that clip in the OP.

 

[blindsage]

You're watching a different clip to me. That clip just illustrated perfectly my point. All were judo or wrestling moves executed from a natural mobile stance, most were inner or outer reaps or hip throws performed with very small movements of the legs and hips. Absolutely no long low stances or large flowery circular moves as demonstrated by WZP. trying to say that they are the same thing is nonsense (its like saying that WC and CLF punches are the same and the kind of throws demonstrated by WZP would get laughed at in judo and wrestling clubs across the world.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right....