WC Punch

[KPM]

Out of range, distance control will prevent round attacks and draw linear ones. When distance is closed, positioning and spatial dominance will greatly reduce the ability of the opponent to throw round attacks and weaken their effectiveness if attempted.

---And again. THAT I would like to see. Because I do not think that works reliably in all situations. Because, despite what you may think, I have sparred with good people. Non-Wing Chun people. Many would just keep throwing their non-linear punches despite any kind of baiting or positioning simply because that's the main punch they know!


This is the answer to dealing with round attacks in general. It starts from fighting strategy, not a resort to remedial actions for the lack of intelligent strategy. The specific tactics used to accomplish this have been purposefully omitted.

---Right...."purposefully omitted." Didn't you two jump on me at one point because you thought I was not answering YOUR questions?


In most circumstances, I will not be found in the position you probably find yourself in often. That is, walking straight-line in between the opponent's arms, thinking you must "occupy center" and then need to block round attacks left and right like Whack-A-Mole.

---If you aren't finding yourself in that position, then you must not be sparring any people that are very good. And I don't walk straight-line up the middle either!


If I were to screw things up so royally as to be stood there like that, biu-da would be as bad an answer as taan-da

---See, there it is. I knew that was coming!


The last thing I would want to do when standing between an opponent's arms facing a round punch coming at me, would be to reactively reach my arm out after it, chasing arms, and leaving my head exposed.

---Well, if you see your system as a punching method for exchanging blows, then yeah it would be a bad idea for you. When you see your system as a way of gaining control and affecting the opponent's balance and structure, its not so bad!


At close range, and in such a bad position, a blinding barrage of punches can come fast and having your arms outstretched like a zombie reactively chasing arms is going to get you knocked out.

---Right! And you actually think that "blinding barrage of punches" will only come in this situation and will include no non-linear, non-centerline punches because you have used your "intelligent fighting strategy" to guarantee this????



A much safer and provenly effective method would be a wu-sau adaptation for cover closer to the head while counter striking. In this case, we need a remedial action to fix our screw up of position.

---Sure. As he weaves out of the path of your counter strike and drives a shovel hook into your ribs.

 

[KPM]

You revealed in the last post that your goal was to get me to concede using some technique similar to yours. But the alternative is not some other reactive technique. It's fighting strategy first and foremost, and that's what I explained.

No. You didn't explain. Evidently you "purposefully omitted."

 

[LFJ]

Many would just keep throwing their non-linear punches despite any kind of baiting or positioning simply because that's the main punch they know!

Throwing round punches when out of range for it would be stupid and ineffective.

---Well, if you see your system as a punching method for exchanging blows, then yeah it would be a bad idea for you. When you see your system as a way of gaining control and affecting the opponent's balance and structure, its not so bad!

I don't exchange blows, nor do I attempt to control people with zombie arms.

---Right! And you actually think that "blinding barrage of punches" will only come in this situation and will include no non-linear, non-centerline punches because you have used your "intelligent fighting strategy" to guarantee this????

That situation, standing between someone's arms with both of yours outstretched will definitely invite all manner of punches. I wouldn't do that.

---Sure. As he weaves out of the path of your counter strike and drives a shovel hook into your ribs.

Ooh, a scary "what-if" scenario! But if he does that, I'll do this and then what's he gonna do? Huh?

No. You didn't explain. Evidently you "purposefully omitted."

I explained the strategy in general terms, omitting specific tactics. A Wing Chun guy should know what to do from there.

 

[KPM]

Ok, I give up. Once again, it has become abundantly clear that discussions like this go nowhere with you. You obfuscate points, don't explain what you mean, and just keep talking in circles. I know, you'll probably say the same thing about me. And you'll also think once again that you right and everyone else is wrong simply because you are more persistent. But I have been accused of being the source of these arguments simply because I call you on things that don't make sense. So I'm done. Say whatever you want.

 

[Phobius]

Throwing round punches when out of range for it would be stupid and ineffective.

Just had to involve myself here again, if you are out of range for round punches does this mean you look at VT as being long range boxing? Or if you consider it close range, you jump in and out of range? Or putting all bets you will finish the fight quickly once you're within range? (The later is of course a given for all but many want not to bet their life on it)

Found it curious that you consider staying out of range for round punches because given the WC/VT punches with squared body means you to will be out of range at that point.

I don't exchange blows, nor do I attempt to control people with zombie arms.

There is more things other than "zombie arms" and "punching". Many styles including boxing will have other methods as well. Not a fan of zombie arms, nor sure anyone does that given how quickly one should figure out that having arms stretched out in front of you is just gonna hurt.

That situation, standing between someone's arms with both of yours outstretched will definitely invite all manner of punches. I wouldn't do that.

Nobody wants that, I think he meant it rather as **** happends kind of situation. We don't always pick how a fight starts.

Ooh, a scary "what-if" scenario! But if he does that, I'll do this and then what's he gonna do? Huh?

The what-ifs can be good for understanding a discussion or a question, not sure in this case and dont care. It was just part of the quote so figured I say that it can be good adding what-ifs to increase understanding of an argument sometimes.

I explained the strategy in general terms, omitting specific tactics. A Wing Chun guy should know what to do from there.

I think you were a bit vague. A Wing Chun guy has his own ways of doing it, but that means a vague term as "tactics", "strategy" and so on can not be understood because it says nothing. You have to consider that if all your questions were answered that way where you were requested to fill in the gaps the end result would be you having no clue what the heck they were talking about. Good or bad.

Might already be how you feel people do towards you, heck would I know. But vague terms are not understandable, because they can mean you are doing crazy stuff, logical stuff, weird stuff... heck your strategy could be to throw sand in their eyes, scream out loud Leeeroy and then run straight into them with your head first and upon contact scream out "I AM A FLOWERPOT!". That would be a strategy, effectiveness could be discussed of course.

EDIT: Which is why I find the answer of footwork to be a good answer, it seems like it is the answer you wanted to give.

 

[LFJ]

But I have been accused of being the source of these arguments simply because I call you on things that don't make sense.

You "called me on" something stupid I never said I do and repeatedly said I don't do.

Post #158
"You mean how to do something at the wrong time? I don't."

Post #167
"You're asking me to misapply a principle."

Post #205
"We never said that is our approach. That's some stupid idea KPM came up with."

Post #206
"That's a stupid misapplication of the principle, for lack of fighting strategy."

Post #209
"...nonsensical question of how to deflect a round punch while striking with the same arm."

"The question assumes I'd try to use one arm where KPM would use taan-da, i.e. standing between the opponent's arms trying to block a round punch. That's retarded." (Now you said you would use biu-da, but all the same.)

Post #215
"I have no approach remotely like that. It is the nonsensical approach you are attempting to fit me with and have me explain."



Then finally, after all that... You ask me why I didn't just come out immediately and say that's not what I do and explain what I'd do instead, when that's exactly what I've been doing this entire time! FFS man!

You were just waiting around for me to throw out an alternative technique, but VT doesn't work like that.

 

[LFJ]

Just had to involve myself here again, if you are out of range for round punches does this mean you look at VT as being long range boxing? Or if you consider it close range, you jump in and out of range? Or putting all bets you will finish the fight quickly once you're within range? (The later is of course a given for all but many want not to bet their life on it)

I don't jump out of range, but I don't jump in either. We have strategy and tactics for both since it's all part of a fight, and our goal is to safely enter and aggressively attack until finished.

Found it curious that you consider staying out of range for round punches because given the WC/VT punches with squared body means you to will be out of range at that point.

When out of range for round punches, linear punches may still be in range. That's in part how linear punches can be drawn from the opponent, and VT has methods of entry and counter striking to deal with it, which involves tactical footwork, angling, positioning and spatial dominance, etc..

having arms stretched out in front of you is just gonna hurt.

And that is exactly what taan-da or biu-da against a round punch is.

I think you were a bit vague. A Wing Chun guy has his own ways of doing it, but that means a vague term as "tactics", "strategy" and so on can not be understood because it says nothing.

Distance control, spatial dominance, tactical footwork... These should all mean something to any WC practitioner.

EDIT: Which is why I find the answer of footwork to be a good answer, it seems like it is the answer you wanted to give.

Footwork should be assumed in all things. Nothing happens without footwork.

 

[Phobius]

I don't jump out of range, but I don't jump in either. We have strategy and tactics for both since it's all part of a fight, and our goal is to safely enter and aggressively attack until finished.

Okay.

When out of range for round punches, linear punches may still be in range. That's in part how linear punches can be drawn from the opponent, and VT has methods of entry and counter striking to deal with it, which involves tactical footwork, angling, positioning and spatial dominance, etc..

It is not a big difference in range between a rounded attack and a linear. So small window to operate in. Also when entering on a linear punch you have to move and be prepared for combos. Which takes you into range of rounded attack. You put no worry to this during entry?

This point is that they may likely start doing fake jabs and follow up with round attacks after moving small step or luring you in with the fake.

And that is exactly what taan-da or biu-da against a round punch is.

Depends, if you attack with it or if it was already there catching an attack. Close range after all. Problem is people and you seem to discuss this from long range where you probably would not like such movements.

Distance control, spatial dominance, tactical footwork... These should all mean something to any WC practitioner.

They do, but words like tactics, strategy, drawing punches and closing options don't. Can mean too much.

Footwork should be assumed in all things. Nothing happens without footwork.

Here I was thinking you know much about YouTube wing chun. Footwork which should by logic be one of the most important things for close range seems like it is forgotten completely by many. Probably people think they should copy SLT and don't know it's meaning.

 

[SaulGoodman]

I still maintain that LFJ is doing nothing different to what the majority of WC practitioners would do vs a circular attack. This onus on terms like "tactical footwork TM " and "remedial hands" is simply smoke and mirrors to disguise what is a very basic and ordinary approach to dealing with round attacks. And then saying he is deliberately muddying the waters so we don't get to see this "groundbreaking approach", now that's just plain silly....

 

[LFJ]

It is not a big difference in range between a rounded attack and a linear. So small window to operate in. Also when entering on a linear punch you have to move and be prepared for combos. Which takes you into range of rounded attack. You put no worry to this during entry?

On the edge of kicking range, people tend to come forward with their longest range linear attacks. When distance is managed very well, just on the very edge, they can be made to overreach and even lose balance, which makes for safer entries and easier counters.

Even closer in boxing range, as I mentioned earlier, Mayweather was very good at managing distance and baiting linear punches with his use of the Philly Shell guard that presented an illusory range. He could easily get people to overextend and his shoulder roll would take them further off line, open them up, and unbalance them. Then he could counter at will and duck out of range again before they knew what happened. And these were professional boxers.

Again, this is not what I do with VT, but is an example of drawing the attacks you want and forcing mistakes, even before entry. Of course, once in, VT stays in and its bread & butter is forcing mistakes and taking up balance and facing while controlling space and unleashing assault on the opponent.

This point is that they may likely start doing fake jabs and follow up with round attacks after moving small step or luring you in with the fake.

Not a big problem if you aren't too eager or jumpy, or reaching out with reactive taan-sau's and biu-sau's.

Footwork which should by logic be one of the most important things for close range seems like it is forgotten completely by many. Probably people think they should copy SLT and don't know it's meaning.

I gave you and KPM the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[LFJ]

to disguise what is a very basic and ordinary approach to dealing with round attacks.

What I do is very simple. Nothing special. But the "ordinary approach" is reactive taan-da or biu-da. I don't do that.

 

[LFJ]

Also when entering on a linear punch you have to move and be prepared for combos. Which takes you into range of rounded attack. You put no worry to this during entry?

To be clear, what I'm saying is you don't just jump in. You have to find or make the right timing through control of distance and position, and drawing. It's a skill to develop. A lot of WC I've seen has no idea how to do this. That's why they get eaten up before they even get a chance to get into their range.

 

[Phobius]

To be clear, what I'm saying is you don't just jump in. You have to find or make the right timing through control of distance and position, and drawing. It's a skill to develop. A lot of WC I've seen has no idea how to do this. That's why they get eaten up before they even get a chance to get into their range.

With this and previous post to me I think provides good answer to the question.

What I mean with footwork is also closely dependant on good timing to enter. Sometimes I might missread and walk into wrong punch and use body yield to reposition/realign myself and attack.

Whatever my arms does depends on if they are caught by a rounded attack or not. They do not chase anything but I have had them caught which leads me to move them according to how opponent attack in order to deflect.

 

[LFJ]

With this and previous post to me I think provides good answer to the question.

Good we got somewhere then.

Whatever my arms does depends on if they are caught by a rounded attack or not. They do not chase anything but I have had them caught which leads me to move them according to how opponent attack in order to deflect.

Right. I just think it is a bad idea to start reaching out with techniques like taan-sau or biu-sau when surprised with a round shot. Extending both arms far from your head in such situations is a dangerous flinch habit. Better to protect the head close, and that is provenly effective.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I just think it is a bad idea to start reaching out with techniques like taan-sau or biu-sau when surprised with a round shot. Extending both arms far from your head in such situations is a dangerous flinch habit. Better to protect the head close, and that is provenly effective.

When you straight your arms out, your head is well protected by your arms. It's your opponent who has to worry about his head.

 

[LFJ]

If your opponent attacks like that, I guess so.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your opponent attacks like that, I guess so.

When your opponent punches, you can dodge and move back.

You can also block/deflect and move in.

 

[wckf92]

If your opponent attacks like that, I guess so.

I think I saw an attack like that on The Walking Dead once. Jk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think I saw an attack like that on The Walking Dead once. Jk

Except zombie won't be able to use his leg like this.

 

[KPM]

When your opponent punches, you can dodge and move back.

You can also block/deflect and move in.

This is very true John! But when someone sees their Wing Chun as being all about the punch and oriented towards exchanging blows, then closing in that close to control and affect the opponent's structure and balance doesn't occur to them. All they know to do is to try and punch the opponent out!