SaulGoodman
Green Belt
What I would call a "square body" tan Sao vs a tight hook will result at best partially stopping the shot then the attackers fist will loop round and still tag you. Easy to prove, just glove up and enjoy! I
WC Punch
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
- Start date
OP
OP
YM's student Jeffery Law told me the following story.
In one HK tournament, a CLF guy used a "right hay-maker" on a WC guy's head. The WC guy used "left Tan Shou" to block it. That right hay-maker not only knocked down the WC guy's left Tan Shou, it also hit on the WC guy's head. After the tournament, the WC guy went back to YM and asked for solution. YM told him to use "right Tan Shou" to block "right hay-maker".
I have used "double Tan Shou" (plus body rotation) to stop make hay-maker before. Since "double Tan Shou" is the same as "boxing guard", it works quite well.
dudewingchun
Blue Belt
What im confused. He said use right tan sao to block a right hook? How does that even work.
OP
OP
Rotate your body to your left and use your right arm to block a right hay-maker. You use your right arm to "cut" into your opponent's striking arm. It's pretty much like a Karate hard block.
SaulGoodman
Green Belt
What happens when he throws a follow up left hook? In that scenario you are actually facing the inside of his right arm, he will connect with the left hand long before you change your angle of facing.
The best solution to a haymaker is not to be there when they throw it. What you do with your hands is an auxilary at best.
Now the problem with this advice is that you might be taken by surprise. You see a lot of that on Youtube. When I'm surprised, I flinch and cover-my head. Ducking the head, bringing the arms up covering my face and cheeks, hands grabbing the top -back of the head, elbows in front. This is a deeply rooted survival reflex, and no amount of training will totally eliminate it. So instead, use it. Call it a highly compressed tan-sau with a simultaneous elbow strike, if you will.
When the punch comes go with your instincts, but aggressively. Against a right, cover-up and step inside, turning left toward the punch. By moving explosively forward and inside, you evade the power arc of a haymaker, the nearest covering arm (left) jams the punch, and the other arm becomes a vertical elbow jamming into their face.
Now I know people are going to say that this won't work so well against a "proper hook". Yeah, that's true. Proper hooks knock trained boxers out. But covering and rolling with it can help blunt the blow. What really helps is moving-in and rolling into that vertical elbow strike. If you survive the hook, you can definitely give back some of the pain.
OK I took a 2-minute look on Youtube and this is the first thing that caught my eye:
This is the cover I'm talking about, except I use both hands to cover and guard, and step explosively forward, turning a bit so that if the left covers, the right forearm or elbow hits hard. Anybody else like this?
Now the problem with this advice is that you might be taken by surprise. You see a lot of that on Youtube. When I'm surprised, I flinch and cover-my head. Ducking the head, bringing the arms up covering my face and cheeks, hands grabbing the top -back of the head, elbows in front. This is a deeply rooted survival reflex, and no amount of training will totally eliminate it. So instead, use it. Call it a highly compressed tan-sau with a simultaneous elbow strike, if you will.
When the punch comes go with your instincts, but aggressively. Against a right, cover-up and step inside, turning left toward the punch. By moving explosively forward and inside, you evade the power arc of a haymaker, the nearest covering arm (left) jams the punch, and the other arm becomes a vertical elbow jamming into their face.
Now I know people are going to say that this won't work so well against a "proper hook". Yeah, that's true. Proper hooks knock trained boxers out. But covering and rolling with it can help blunt the blow. What really helps is moving-in and rolling into that vertical elbow strike. If you survive the hook, you can definitely give back some of the pain.
OK I took a 2-minute look on Youtube and this is the first thing that caught my eye:
This is the cover I'm talking about, except I use both hands to cover and guard, and step explosively forward, turning a bit so that if the left covers, the right forearm or elbow hits hard. Anybody else like this?
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SaulGoodman
Green Belt
I like this and employ a similar cover to deal with this type of blow. I've often felt that sometimes it's not always sage to fight the natural flinch but rather to "build" on it so your response still errs on the natural reaction but with some added "trained sophistication"
OP
OP
If your right Tan Shou can function as your "rhino guard", your head will be protect by your own arms.
Since your right hand is on the right side of your opponent's head, after you have blocked his right hay-maker, your right arm can apply "reverse head lock" on his head. This "reverse head lock" will disable his left hook.
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Ok. Silat overlap here. Visualize that picture from the thumbnail for the vid Steve posted. But see it angled INTO the oncoming punch. See it with the right hand against the forearm for reinforcement. 3 things will happen. The punch collides forcefully with the point of the elbow...bad news for the puncher! The punch skates "up the ramp" being deflected upward. The punch skates "down the ramp". The third is the least desirable outcome, but even then its force is blunted and you simply pivot back to the right with a "whizzer" that wrenches his elbow. And you are flowing into your next response just as the punch meets your cover. So you won't be exactly where he expects you to be if he is automatically throwing a left hook immediately after the right one.
OP
OP
- Your opponent throw a right hay-maker (or hook), you use left hand to block on his wrist, use your right hand to push on his right shoulder.
- When he throws a left hay-maker (or hook), you use right hand to "wrap" his left arm, use your left arm to lock on his head, and take him down.
As long as you are in your opponent's "front door - between his arms", his right and left hay-makers (or hooks) will be a gift to you.
- When he throws a left hay-maker (or hook), you use right hand to "wrap" his left arm, use your left arm to lock on his head, and take him down.
As long as you are in your opponent's "front door - between his arms", his right and left hay-makers (or hooks) will be a gift to you.
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Nobody Important
2nd Black Belt
Then use right hacking elbow in bong sau fashion and wrap up.
dudewingchun
Blue Belt
You guys realise how fast punches come right? I dont think crossing over your whole body to reach something on the other side of your body is efficient. Kind of confused that Ip man would even recommend that.
I remember before I started learning CSL, I thought things would deflect off the 'angle' of my sao's, but then I was sparring with a mate who just straight punched through my gaurd and made me punch my own face with my ' gaurd hands'. It also happened to me with a hook where I did a tan and it still hit me even though I got it with the tan and kind of hurt my shoulder from the force. That was Ip chun/ Lo man Kam hybrid application though.
^ My obvious preffered way of dealing with those hooks.
I remember before I started learning CSL, I thought things would deflect off the 'angle' of my sao's, but then I was sparring with a mate who just straight punched through my gaurd and made me punch my own face with my ' gaurd hands'. It also happened to me with a hook where I did a tan and it still hit me even though I got it with the tan and kind of hurt my shoulder from the force. That was Ip chun/ Lo man Kam hybrid application though.
^ My obvious preffered way of dealing with those hooks.
This is as simialr block that is taught in Jow Ga Kung Fu. You can actually see this block demonstrated in the kung fu forms. The only difference is we cover that small opening that you see where the ear is exposed.
The way that the block is being demonstrated means that someone can land a hook right in that spot. We also don't open our hand to execute the block as if we are brushing our hair. It's a valid blocking technique provided that the opening is closed and the ear isn't exposed.
Nobody Important
2nd Black Belt
This is a standing elbow used high instead of in midsection as normally taught. Good when closing a gap. Use of a hacking elbow ( from elbow to shoulder) in outward fashion as if throwing an outer elbow strike is good for short hook when inside, both allow for wrapping up. Main difference is hacking elbow comes across to outside of body. The high standing elbow comes straight up on same side.
OP
OP
If you train with speed, you can handle speed. If you can feel that your eye balls are going to fly out of your eye sockets, you can understand what "lighting speed" is.
- Your opponent right hay-maker at your head.
- You use your left arm to wrap around his right arm, spin your body in lighting speed, use your right hay-maker to hit on the back of his head, get him a head lock, and take him down.
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Nobody Important
2nd Black Belt
Very good. That is left hacking elbow applied to right hook and right covering elbow used to wrap neck, circle step used to set hip and throw. Concepts from Biu Jee applied in Sut Gow manner.
SaulGoodman
Green Belt
I agree 100%, I think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on with some of the applications suggested.
The demo clips are done with compliant partners in slow motion, I would be more convinced seeing the tecniques espoused performed real time when the "defender" doesn't know what attack is coming.
I must be really slow or something but I believe the kind of timeframe we are talking about is way too tight to pull off some of this stuff. But at the end of the day if it works for these guys great, I've been in the mix plenty of times and know what works for me and turning to face a right hook and blocking it with my right hand then arm wrapping the guys neck with the SAME arm THEN converting that to a guillotene AND avoiding the left hand missiling at my head (not to mention a possible follow up kick/knee) is not a tactic I would attempt unless I was fighting a zombie.
OP
OP
This clip will meet your requirement.
- He moves in with a "boxing guard" similar to WC double Tan Shou.
- His opponent throws a right hook at him.
- He use left WC Tan Shou to block and wrap it,
- uses his right Tan Shou to deal with his opponent's left hook.
- move into his opponent's "front door" between both arms,
- use his left arm to lock on his opponent's head, and
- right uppercut at his opponent.
His opponent's hook punches didn't look that fast in this clip at all. Why? Because he moves in and squeeze the space instead of move back.
Also his left arm has plenty of time to wrap around his opponent's head before he throws that "uppercut".
The closer that you and your opponent's body is, the slower that his punch will be. When your body and your opponent's body body are this close, his punch can be ignored. The faster that your opponent moves in toward you, the faster the space between you and your opponent will be squeezed.
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OP
OP
This clip will meet your requirement.
- He moves in with a "boxing guard" similar to WC double Tan Shou.
- His opponent throws a right hook at him.
- He use left WC Tan Shou to block and wrap it,
- uses his right Tan Shou to deal with his opponent's left hook.
- move into his opponent's "front door" between both arms,
- use his left arm to lock on his opponent's head, and
- right uppercut at his opponent.
His opponent's hook punches didn't look that fast in this clip at all. Why? Because he moves in and squeeze the space instead of move back.
Also his left arm has plenty of time to wrap around his opponent's head before he throws that "uppercut".
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And then get knocked out by the follow up left since you've turned your facing and tools away from your opponent.... No Centerline, no WC.
