WC Beginning Training = Watching Paint Dry?

[Yoshiyahu]

Bruce Lee didnt have the entire dummy form nor did have Bil Gee. Or any of the weapons. But he was very skilled in fighting. His hand techniques were awesome. An inch power was good to. The think that the basics are what make a stronger fighter and fierce. The basics are core. SLT is the foundation of all hand techniques. Many things found in Bil Gee and Chum Kiu will be covered in various drills. Depending on your lineage.

But if you are so bent on learning the Wooden Dummy form...

Then:
1.Buy a wooden dummy.
2.Watch the Wooden dummy form of Yip man on Video.
3.Memorize the form and practice it on your wooden dummy.
4.When you get stuck asked your Sifu questions about the mok jong.
5.Practice the wooden dummy form 10 times a day.
6.Practice it at various speeds and power.
7.Once you memorize it allow your Sifu to train when ever he is ready.

SLT is a great form...Actually my favorite. But as for doing it ten times. Try to visualize different things. One thing I do is visualize an opponent infront of me. An with the side techniques I visualize and opponent to my right and left. This may help stop it from being boring. An you may learn what much of SLT can be used for in actual fight if you visualize a foe attacking or being attacked by your SLT.

Just my little two cents thats all its worth.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You know the more I think about this a better analogy to me would be like watching grass grow. But then it is late, I'm tired and it is likely just me.

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

I train Kenpo, not Wing Chun, but I can understand the dilemma.

Instant applicability vs building the foundations. Which is better?

Imho, I believe that unless you have an immediate, urgent need to know how to fight (e.g. you're a cop, soldier, bouncer etc)... it's far better to focus on carefully building the basics before focusing on the 'more exciting' material.

Taking Kenpo as an example, there is, at times, a tendency to focus on Self Defense Techniques to the detriment of strengthening basic movements. This can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, from Day-1, you are taught destructive sequences aimed at striking vital targets (however sloppily these sequences are executed), and would therefore have a slightly better chance then the average Joe if attacked on the mean streets. On the other hand, if attention is not paid to refining stances, footwork, posture, and the mechanics of basic strikes and blocks, you will forever be executing sloppy technique sequences, and if reinforced into muscle memory, this may end up costing you dearly.

Bottom line: Strong basics = Powerful, impressive art.

So enjoy the foundation-building phase of drilling SLT. From what I can see, WC is an excellent art with many practical strengths. Have fun on the journey. If you keep at it, I think you'll find it pays off.

Regards,
TCG

 

[mook jong man]

I thouight it takes 2-3 years to learn the system. Why did you only learn SLT in 4 years?

Where ever did you get the idea that it takes 2-3 years to learn the whole system , I suppose you could rush through the whole system in 3 years but your skills would be crap , you wouldn't have much of a stance to speak of and not a great deal of speed .

Also your wrist strength and elbow force would not be developed enough for you to use the weapons properly , specifically in the case of the knives where wrist strength is crucial against a heavy weapon swung at you , you will not have enough resistance and the weapon will crash straight through or your knives will simply be knocked out of your hands .

In the case of the pole your stance will not be developed and you are likely to either sprain your back and probably in a fight get the pole knocked out of your out of your hands as well . When I said that SLT was the only form I knew for the first 4 years , it didn't mean thats all I was taught , I was taught self defence techniques as well and my Chi Sau was at a pretty good level and I was pretty fast .

But I did feel that my stance was only just starting to come together and I was starting to understand how to relax . To illustrate how long a road it is in our system Sigung Tsui thinks that anyone with under ten years under their belt is still a beginner , thats the sort of time frame I am talking about .

In our lineage you are only considered to be a junior master after about 20 years and that is only if Sigung thinks you are up to scratch . I remember when I reached the grade of level one instructor after 5 years my Sifu said to us that although it was good that we got that far it was by no means a great achievment it just meant that it was like we were leaving high school and starting our first year at university .

I would put a student with a thorough grounding in SLT , Chi Sau and the stance up against any self proclaimed master who said they have finished the whole system in 2 or 3 years . After 20 years with Wing Chun as my core art I am still not satisfied with the way I do things . My left arm is a little bit wonky compared to my right , my right Fook Sau is not as relaxed as my left .

My left Bong Sau is not as good as my right , my left kick is not as co-ordinated as my right . My stepping in , is not as non telegraphic as I would like and sometimes my wife can still shoot in a fast palm strike to my chest through my Fook Sau if I'm not watching what I'm doing .

The list is long of things that I have to work on , and I don't ever expect to reach perfection , but if I can just be even half as good as my Sifu was or even a quarter as good as what Sigung is then I can die a happy man .

 

[KamonGuy2]

In Kamon we don't spend a great deal of time just sitting in base. We compliment it with drills
(Lap sao drill, lok sao, etc)

You should practice opening and closing stance a lot and work your SLT but if you are finding it boring maybe wing chun isn't for you dude

You have to feel happy with your training and it should feel natural

Personally I love stancework and drills in stance. I'm a big guy so I find it hard, but I know that with every minute that passes in stance I am improving my body

 

[matsu]

i,m not sure if its my age or this year happening or what, but i dont seem to be in a hurry anymore to "graduate" to any level. i just want to be able to stop my peers getting through when they attack and to be able to give a good representation of myself within class.
i know i can probabaly defend myself against a street attack but def not against a relatively decent martial artist..... yet!
i have so much to work on with so little time that it fustrates me intensly,probably to the detriment on my art but hey thats me..... so how the hell can i get bored with anything that we do??

again perhaps knowing the very cool applicvations of the form will change your perspective on the fundamentals you are trying to improve on??
last class i reaaly got how simplythe taan can work. we did guard to guard then as the opposite grabbed your hand street style we then gaan sau and punch,and if they used their thumb to hold on to your wrist you turn gaan into taan sau which changes their whole shape leaving them open for massive rib breaker,or pak au and strike with the taan hand. all sooooo simple but amazing to watch and seeing as i was demonstrated on ,so scary to be taken out with!
but sifu kept telling us it was good basic structure from slt that enables us to do this so dynamically!
sorry, too much waffle

matsu

 

[mook jong man]

last class i reaaly got how simplythe taan can work. we did guard to guard then as the opposite grabbed your hand street style we then gaan sau and punch,and if they used their thumb to hold on to your wrist you turn gaan into taan sau which changes their whole shape leaving them open for massive rib breaker,or pak au and strike with the taan hand. all sooooo simple but amazing to watch and seeing as i was demonstrated on ,so scary to be taken out with!

Yes it is amazing how the simple act of raising your arm in Tan Sau can put some one who has grabbed your arm in a very weak and vulnerable position . The follow ups that are possible from that position are numerous as well , anything from breaking their arm at the elbow joint to throws .

 

[Sandstorm]

As you know I have started WC.
I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff. I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry. I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".

I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring! Why must you do SLT so much!?!?

Just try and relax and enjoy it. There's no rush. It's something you should do for the love of it. If it's becoming a chore, maybe your mindset needs adjusting or you should look at a different art? Form work is laborious, yes, but we must all perfect those small beginnings to achieve the greater benefits later.

Just my tuppence worth
Good luck and stick with it, it's worth it.

 

[AceHBK]

lol@ Xue Sheng..yeah Wtaching grass grow would have been better. I just went with what hit my head first.

Ok I come from TKD background so I am use to seeing a move and immediately applying it. Now I'm not saying that I didn't work on forms a lot (which I did) but for myself I learn a lot better when I see the applications of things I am taught.

Now again I have only had a week of WC training so I knew it would be basics. I asked my Sifu what was the application of SLT. He said that there isn't one application and there are a lot of things that you can do with it. That was it. No different if you was building a house, I understand foundation is the main thing, just show me what each piece does for the house, that's all. Im not the one to just follow blindly and not ask questions. Im not a kool aid drinker...lol

I will say you all mention a lot of other stuff but again I haven't been taught that. Just pak sau and pak dar, thats it. Oh yeah and punching the bag of sand to help condition my knuckles.

As far as the 3 years go, that is what is always said about WC. I could careless if it took longer but I am just repeating what is always advertised about WC.

 

[mook jong man]

As far as the 3 years go, that is what is always said about WC. I could careless if it took longer but I am just repeating what is always advertised about WC.

It must be an American thing then , because I've never seen any school over here advertising that you can get through the whole system in 3 years and if they did I would make sure to stay away from any school that made such claims .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

You are right the whole system can be taught in three years. But to be a highly skilled fighter it will take you about 20 years to master. Now as for in history People who learned WC in just three years usually practice it 8 hours a day. We practice WC maybe 16 hours a week if we try hard. So in three years your not going to that skilled. Unless you move to shaolin for three years...then you will be very formidale.


But as for SLT I am impress you started learning it the first week. My Sifu didn't share SLT with me until I had basic punches and steps. An I didn't start learning any kicks until after my SLT and other forms outside of WC were looking right.


We all learn differently. There are many videos that share applications of SLT check out youtube. As for the first week. Ha ha. But my Sifu always says with each technique there are limitless applications. You can also try meditate on each move on how they will be used against an opponent. Or have someone throw a punch at you an try different parts of the form. Have some grab you from behind an figure out what part of SLT can be used. But I suggest learning the entire form first. Get it tight and correct structure then worry about applications. The first thing you are doing is building short power and cultivating chi.

Your stance is foundation of the house. With out it your punches will lack alot of piercing and damaging power to your foes. As for TKD forms. If I were you I would get the book an relearn all your forms. Their forms are great. Not much kicking but the hand techniques are awesome. Real Kung Fu. Few people learn the true form of TKD except the Koreans. But mostly on Television all you see is kicks. TKD is only really 30% kicks. Contrary to popular belief. Hitting the wall bag does more than condition your knuckles..Knuckle push ups on bricks covered with towels can condition your knuckles. The wall bag is doing more than just mere conditioning.

What do you focus on when you punch the bag?

lol@ Xue Sheng..yeah Wtaching grass grow would have been better. I just went with what hit my head first.

Ok I come from TKD background so I am use to seeing a move and immediately applying it. Now I'm not saying that I didn't work on forms a lot (which I did) but for myself I learn a lot better when I see the applications of things I am taught.

Now again I have only had a week of WC training so I knew it would be basics. I asked my Sifu what was the application of SLT. He said that there isn't one application and there are a lot of things that you can do with it. That was it. No different if you was building a house, I understand foundation is the main thing, just show me what each piece does for the house, that's all. Im not the one to just follow blindly and not ask questions. Im not a kool aid drinker...lol

I will say you all mention a lot of other stuff but again I haven't been taught that. Just pak sau and pak dar, thats it. Oh yeah and punching the bag of sand to help condition my knuckles.

As far as the 3 years go, that is what is always said about WC. I could careless if it took longer but I am just repeating what is always advertised about WC.

 

[AceHBK]

Thanks for all of the great advise everyone. I greatly appreciate it and will use what you all have taught/suggested.

Yosh...I concentrate on making sure I am doing my chain punches correctly and that I am using the bottom three knuckles.
Tonight I learned Lap Sao. I like!!!!

Veeeeery interesting!!!
I have much practice to do. A wooden dummy to work on the things I learned would be nice..... Helps to have a arm to help.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well having a wooden dummy is easy. Just save up $1000 dollars an buy one.


Yes. So you use the bottom two the three knuckles. That means your target is above neck level. if you use the top two to three knuckles that means your target is below chest level. Like your striking the stomach or ribs from an angle. I think you could switch to strike a high target with the top knuckles but to me that is ineffeicient.

I am glad your diving in head first. Sometimes I take parts of SLT and drill them over and over again until it becomes natural. An I get with a friend outside of class. Maybe not even someone who trains wc. I show them the SLT technique. An we take turns drilling applications. Sometimes one applicantion and sometimes various ones. When doing Chi Sau I use to always focus on different techs from SLT an how to apply in them in Chi Sau. Now I am beginning to think about Chum Kiu techs during Chi Sau.

Thanks for all of the great advise everyone. I greatly appreciate it and will use what you all have taught/suggested.

Yosh...I concentrate on making sure I am doing my chain punches correctly and that I am using the bottom three knuckles.
Tonight I learned Lap Sao. I like!!!!

Veeeeery interesting!!!
I have much practice to do. A wooden dummy to work on the things I learned would be nice..... Helps to have a arm to help.

 

[Hagakure]

As you know I have started WC.
I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff. I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry. I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".

I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring! Why must you do SLT so much!?!?

It looks as though I'm the only dissenting voice then... Hmmm...

I have to say I guess it depends on the school, we must spend, ooooh, a minute or two going over it at the end of a class? Some on here may denigrate that, but really, why? Yes, it's very, very useful. Yes, there are very valid reasons for doing it, but if "doing SLT so much" means spending a good deal of the class doing it, I can't see the martial application/self defence application in that. It's a training aid in my view, and if it's being trained to the expense of other methods in your class, then I'm not surprised you're a little browned off.

We do a lot of pad work, focus mitts, bare knuckle, chi sao, concentrating on fluid movement, un-padded sparring (one guy will suit up marsh mellow man style) and the other guy will go after him. We learn ranges to hit hard and fast, and kicking range etc etc. This is all after a good, strenuous 20+ minute warm up out of a 2 hour class. In my limited experience, Wing Chun is an extremely effective, simple, direct art that doesn't need a huge amount of experience to transfer to muscle memory, by virtue of the fact that I'd taken an 18 month break from training and had forgotten nothing (rusty but not forgotten) is testament to this.

However, if all you seem to be doing is SLT, then I'd be bored I think. SLT will be extremely popular with traditionalists/purists etc, and I train it slowly at home (almost daily, and certain elements at work while sat at my desk!), and as precisely as I can. In my mind though, training SLT is almost like doing the theory of the art. It doesn't teach me, in my view, the range at which I'm likely to hit a moving, weaving target, or how powerful my kicks are, or aren't in my case, it'll help towards it, but it oughtn't be the sole focus in my opinion. There are those who don't like to see heavy warm-ups in class, stating that the practitioner should either do that at home, or, limit the work done in class. My sifus logic is that when confronted with a violent situation, and this is verified by the likes of Geoff Thompsons work "3 second fighter", the body will experience an adrenaline dump, which can be simulated by doing a strenuous upper body/CV workout, that's why we do it.

Before people take umbridge at what I've said, they're just my views. I'm in no way knocking SLT, or it's importance, just that I'd likely get a bit peeved if it was all I ever seemed to train.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Interesting...When I first started Wing Chun We didn't learn Sil Lim Tao right off the bat. It came months later.

First we learn the
1.Strength conditioning exercises
2.Steps and Stance work
3.Punches
4.Chi Sau
5.Blind Fold Chi Sau
6.Upagainst wall defense with one hand
7.Chi Kung Exercises and strecthing

We learn SLT much later. My Sifu always stressed doing SLT at home ten times a day. But he didn't drill it during class for a hour.

 

[Hagakure]

Interesting...When I first started Wing Chun We didn't learn Sil Lim Tao right off the bat. It came months later.

First we learn the
1.Strength conditioning exercises
2.Steps and Stance work
3.Punches
4.Chi Sau
5.Blind Fold Chi Sau
6.Upagainst wall defense with one hand
7.Chi Kung Exercises and strecthing

We learn SLT much later. My Sifu always stressed doing SLT at home ten times a day. But he didn't drill it during class for a hour.

Also interesting. My sifu trains it slowly at the end, breaking it down, into sections, yet simply doesn't just do IT throughout the whole lesson. He also asks that we train it at home, and if there are any questions to either text him to remind him at the next class, or, to discuss it in class.

 

[paulus]

My sifu trains it slowly at the end, breaking it down, into sections, yet simply doesn't just do IT throughout the whole lesson.

I'm not sure anyone was suggesting they do it throughout the whole lesson, though I might have missed it. In our class we tend to do it for around 10 minutes, and sometimes we don't do it at all. We are encouraged to put the hours in at home though.

When I first started out, those 10 minutes seemed like an age. It's interesting how your perspective can change. Back then 10 minutes felt like an eternity whereas now it's the blink of an eye.

 

[bs10927]

Interesting...When I first started Wing Chun We didn't learn Sil Lim Tao right off the bat. It came months later.

First we learn the
1.Strength conditioning exercises
2.Steps and Stance work
3.Punches
4.Chi Sau
5.Blind Fold Chi Sau
6.Upagainst wall defense with one hand
7.Chi Kung Exercises and strecthing

We learn SLT much later. My Sifu always stressed doing SLT at home ten times a day. But he didn't drill it during class for a hour.

it's interesting that your sifu would throw you into chi sao and blindfolded chi sao without knowing first form where basic techniques are contained. aside from not doing dan chi sao or luk sao first.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

My lineage doesn't have dan chi sau. I learn dan chi sau years later from interacting with people who studied a little of yip man. Actually My Sifu was the type to teach techniques by way of Chi Sau. First he taught us various hand techniques separate of the form. like tan sau. bong sau and pak sau. Where the first. We drilled those like crazy using one hand. Also we drilled Jau sau techniques too.


an during chi sau we and blindfolded the concentration was just on feeling. needless to say with him you always got hit. But it did make my blocks alot better really quickly. I mean the average joe couldn't touch you from those drills and chi sau. Even only after three months of training. It was pretty incredible the way he taught.

I think he taught us that way because we were interested in fighting. He taught us hard basics along with extensive stance work and root training along with some other stuff I hated at first. Now I understand the importance so its not so rigorus to me.


But we also had a form that was created by this grand master which condensed many techniques into a simple format. It was pretty cool. It could be that form helped me with increased speed and blocking. I know training with him was hard. But worth it. I guess everyone teaches differently. But After he taught us Sil Lim Tao his Sihing saw our SLT month later an thought we were pretty good. Meaning our structure was tight and correct as well as relaxed. So He tried to teach us Chum Kiu. At that time I didn't retain it because I wasn't ready for it. Lol...I wanted to stay with the basics back then later on I progress to the other forms.


But to me the basics made me stronger and gave me alot of energy and revved you up to fight. After practicing those daily...your fist be itching to strike. You feet be twitching to kick. Its weird. I feels you up with so much aggression. Its hard to explain. Maybe its my lineage. But I don't know everyone I have met who trains the way we did. Has that same aggressive nature. Maybe it has something to do with the WC do you guys think certain Lineages of WC makes you more aggressive?

it's interesting that your sifu would throw you into chi sao and blindfolded chi sao without knowing first form where basic techniques are contained. aside from not doing dan chi sao or luk sao first.

 

[Hagakure]

I'm not sure anyone was suggesting they do it throughout the whole lesson, though I might have missed it. In our class we tend to do it for around 10 minutes, and sometimes we don't do it at all. We are encouraged to put the hours in at home though.

When I first started out, those 10 minutes seemed like an age. It's interesting how your perspective can change. Back then 10 minutes felt like an eternity whereas now it's the blink of an eye.

I was referring to the OP's statement about doing SLT "so much". This was understood by me to be more than a minute or two per class, and likely more than ten minutes? If it's less than that, then I've likely misinterpreted the OP's initial intentions. I much prefer to train SLT at home, in front of a mirror, slowly, while saving as much time in my class for the way our class is currently set up.