Was I right fighting

[JowGaWolf]

Just beware for the bullying usually do not stop because you punch/kick the bully badly.

While this is true. Most of the time it bullying does stop after the bully has been punched back (more so than not). It works for the same reasons why most criminals will go for easy victims and not the victims that they think will fight back. What's the point of bullying if someone if your victims are going to hit you in the face every time you try?

The problem that many "bullying experts" make is that they treat "handling a bully" as being something totally different from "self-defense." The two are the same thing. The reason that bullying has been on the rise is because the schools and "experts" treat them differently. A self-defense mindset would have already calculated that there's a possibility that the friends may jump in, or that the bully may want to get pay back. In a self-defense situation would also focus on the danger that is occurring and not base the present actions to defend based on a future that may never happen. Many times self-defense tactics start before the actual physical assault, and I'm wondering if the OP originally let something that happened in the past slide. Bullies will often test waters before the physical attack occurs. If you can stop them when they are testing the waters then that will go a long way from having to deal with them.

Maybe the OP ignored a comment that the bully made in the past, instead of standing up to him and letting him know verbally, but respectfully that he wasn't going to put up with that crap.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What would I do as an adult if this happened to me, especially if it was done by someone who I didn't get along with, furthermore done by someone who's made a habit of trying to do other things in the past?

Kick his a$$. No two ways about it. I'd take whatever punishment I was dealt (after lawyering up). Call it barbaric, childish, or whatever you (not you specifically) want. There's lines that don't get crossed without consequences.

On another note, I find it quite contradictory how this stuff goes on in schools with the punishment being no more than a proverbial slap on the wrist, yet an adult at work would have been fired way before the pantsing incident. The whole "boys will be boys" thing's a bit out of control. But I guess that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

A few nights ago I saw a news report about a lady's grandchild being bullied and physically assaulted on the bus. She was in the news complaining about how the school wasn't doing enough to keep her daughter safe. My questions to the grandmother is "Why aren't you putting your granddaughter into a self-defense school so she can have the tools to defend herself when necessary?" Too many parents put the safety of their child in other people's hands, instead of giving them the tools and skill sets that they need to deal with bullies. I hear adults say, "oh I don't need self-defense because there will be other people around to help stop it." To me that's just crazy. There's no guarantee that someone will risk their safety to help. Even if they do, they may only do so after you've been beaten to a pulp.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I mention your last point a bit when these threads come up. School is a completely different game to what we as adults deal with.

And you are effectively trapped in there as they are your major social network as well.

Self-defense is self-defense. That's why schools can't stop bullying because they aren't looking at it from a self-defense perspective. Schools always say, "if someone bothers you go tell a teacher" Then when schools out you get your butt handed to you. Schools don't teach students how to stand up to aggression. Personally I think much of the bullying would stop if they had a martial art in their curriculum. That way the martial art instructor can start shaping the minds of the students and teaching self-defense principles.

 

[Tames D]

I'm a school teacher. I see kids get bullied, picked on, etc. too often. Most of it is harmless, realistically speaking. But there's incidents where kids are targeted for quite some time by the same kid or groups of kids, yet are they're forced to act like nothing happened. They've got to sit in the same classes, often near each other, eat in the same cafeteria at the same time, maybe have lockers pretty close to each other, etc.

If an employee creates a hostile work environment, they're usually fired. A kid can create a hostile learning environment, sometimes for years, yet we force everyone else to shut up and deal with it.

If an adult doesn't like how the situation is being dealt with, he/she can find another place to work, get transferred, even bring suit against the company for allowing an employee to do things without recourse.

A kid doesn't have that luxury. They're court mandated to attend that school, unless the parents have the means to send them to a private school or move to another district.

Yes, kids are kids and shouldn't be kicked out of school for a mistake or three. But if we as adults wouldn't just shut up and deal with it, sometimes for months or even years, why should we expect kids to? We more or less either expect them to resolve it on their own, or hope it goes away.

I wasn't ever bullied in a noteworthy way, nor did I do it to anyone else. But when I see it several times happening to a kid, I can help but think how I'd feel if I had to shut up and deal with it at work (with no option to leave) everyday as an adult. Kids (and adults) pick on each other all the time; im not talking about that, I'm talking about when it goes too far, as in the OP. There needs to be harsher punishment for the repeat offenders than the standard sent to the principal's office, detention, or the week-long vacation referred to as suspension.

The system failed the OP, so he took matters into his own hands without going all Columbine on everyone. Good for him.

Nice post JR. As a school teacher, do you have any input as to how and when the punishments are handed down? For example, I think it's wrong that the victim of the bully gets the same punishment as the bully, just because he stood up to him. Who decides this stuff? Seems to me it feeds the mindset of the bully, when the school authorities put the victim in the same category as the aggressor.

 

[ShawnP]

My questions to the grandmother is "Why aren't you putting your granddaughter into a self-defense school so she can have the tools to defend herself when necessary?" Too many parents put the safety of their child in other people's hands

is this not the same thing? your putting your child's safety in someone else s hands whether they are learning self defense or not, i tend to believe that it is up to the parents to teach their children right from wrong so these situations do not get out of hand, its not up to the teachers to parent its up to the parents to parent. sure self defense classes teach some part of this but children don't see things the way adults do. i was bullied all through high school by 2 kids who took martial arts and used it on me on a daily basis, my teachers didn't give two craps nor did the other kids who all just wanted to see a fight after school, yeah sure the teachers could break up the fight, they can separate the kids so incidents don't occur in school and sure they can give punishments as well but when all is said and done that's about all they can do as adults that are not the parents of these kids, the Law plays a big roll in this whether anyone likes it or not and again i state this is just my opinion on the OPs post and i still feel the OP was and is wrong by deciding to fight when it is unnecessary even as an adult.

 

[Kenpoguy123]

Self-defense is self-defense. That's why schools can't stop bullying because they aren't looking at it from a self-defense perspective. Schools always say, "if someone bothers you go tell a teacher" Then when schools out you get your butt handed to you. Schools don't teach students how to stand up to aggression. Personally I think much of the bullying would stop if they had a martial art in their curriculum. That way the martial art instructor can start shaping the minds of the students and teaching self-defense principles.

I don't agree with that because then the bullies will have those skils to so the people getting bullied wont have the advantage to defend themself especially since most times the bullies will be physically stronger than the victim

 

[JR 137]

Nice post JR. As a school teacher, do you have any input as to how and when the punishments are handed down? For example, I think it's wrong that the victim of the bully gets the same punishment as the bully, just because he stood up to him. Who decides this stuff? Seems to me it feeds the mindset of the bully, when the school authorities put the victim in the same category as the aggressor.

Depends on the school and even the administrator. Different states have different laws. At my previous school, the principal let the students run the show. When there was a fight, there was no telling how it would be dealt with. Sometimes it was in-school suspension for a half day, other times it was out of school suspension. For example, two kids who were good friends walk into the gym (I taught Phys Ed) arguing about something stupid. One guy swings at the other one; the other one tackles him, and holds him on the ground in a headlock (basically restraining him) saying 'what the hell's the matter with you.' A co-worker and I break it up. I send the kid who threw the punch to one principal, and the one who restrained the kid to the other principal.

The principal who took care of the kid who threw the punch wanted to give the kid in-school suspension for the rest of the day. The other principal wanted to suspend the kid who restrained the other kid 3 days out of school suspension.

Seriously. You can't make this crap up. End result - both kids spent 45 minutes in in-school suspension to "cool off." And they were in there together. What if they continued the argument?

 

[JowGaWolf]

is this not the same thing? your putting your child's safety in someone else s hands whether they are learning self defense or not

No it's not the same. When you learn self-defense you have have to put effort and training into it. It's not enough for someone to tell you "this is what you do and it'll magically work." When it comes to a situation where you have to protect yourself, that self-defense teacher isn't going to be there for you. He or she isn't going to beat up the bully for you. They aren't going to tell you if you should hit first or not. What they will do is give you knowledge of a skill set that you can train in or practice. No matter how good I am with self awareness, I can't make someone equally good. They have to train that and practice that skill set.

i tend to believe that it is up to the parents to teach their children right from wrong so these situations do not get out of hand

I'm a "It takes a village to raise a child." type person. Teachers are role models that not only teach but shape the lives of young people. If a teacher sees that a child's behavior is heading in the wrong direction, then that teacher should address it right there and then. People don't become bullies over night. Most start the behavior at a young age and that behavior isn't addressed by teachers because they think that it's not their jobs or responsibility. As a kid, I almost went down the path of being a bully. I said some mean things to a kid and kept saying it, the teacher caught me and had a one on one talk with me, which made me feel bad and embarrassed about my actions. From that point on I was a different kid. My parents didn't teach me that, my teacher did. Teachers teach and it doesn't have to always be about books. As an adult it's better to address bad behavior in kids and expect parents to do something about. Many times a child will value what a non-family member has to say over a family member. I know this because their are adults who do the same thing, where anything their family says is garbage, but anything someone outside of their family says is gold.

i was bullied all through high school by 2 kids who took martial arts and used it on me on a daily basis, my teachers didn't give two craps nor did the other kids who all just wanted to see a fight after school, yeah sure the teachers could break up the fight, they can separate the kids so incidents don't occur in school and sure they can give punishments as well but when all is said and done that's about all they can do as adults that are not the parents of these kids, the Law plays a big roll in this whether anyone likes it or not and again i state this is just my opinion on the OPs post and i still feel the OP was and is wrong by deciding to fight when it is unnecessary even as an adult.

In terms of failure the Martial arts teacher should have instilled values into those 2 kids not to use martial arts that way. People laugh and say that I live in a fantasy world when I tell them that my martial art school doesn't teach people who think have violent behavior like that. We always set an expectation of what it means to be a Jow Ga student, we are blunt and direct about our expectations from the kids in and outside of the school. We let them know right off the back at what types of behavior is acceptable and we don't let it slide. The teacher's may not be able to do much when the fight starts. But before and after such incidents those teachers need to be setting those kids on the right path. If not for your safety then for their safety. Little thugs grow up to be big thugs, the same kids that picked on could easily be the same people that will attack the teacher when they become adults. Problems don't fix themselves. I've seen it in my school where teachers would make an effort to change the direction of a child's life when they see a child going the wrong way. The best time to change their path of destruction is when they aren't in trouble or when they aren't busy picking on someone. I know this work because I've done it all my life and I've seen kids who had the worse attitudes change because I took time out to talk to them even when they weren't in trouble. I have also seen this method fail big time where I wasn't the one that was able to reach the kid and the kid ends up dead because his best friend shot him in the head execution style. In cases like that where, I wasn't the person that had the biggest influence, maybe there was another adult that was who just thought that it wasn't his job or responsibility to help keep a child pointed in the right direction.

Parents aren't always the person that children are most willing to listen to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't agree with that because then the bullies will have those skils to so the people getting bullied wont have the advantage to defend themself especially since most times the bullies will be physically stronger than the victim

Bullies prey on those who they think are weak. You don't have to be physically stronger than someone else in order to make that person think twice about messing with you. In self-defense being stronger or bigger doesn't guarantee victory if things get physical. You literally have multiple generations of adults who came before you that didn't have the same problems that today's kids have today with bullies. We had bigger and stronger bullies too. Which is probably as an adult someone who is bigger and stronger than me doesn't phase me. If anything it just means that I'm not going to hold back if things get physical.

The biggest difference that I've seen between the pre-Internet generations and today's generations is that us older folks were taught to defend ourselves. If it wasn't our father giving us the training then it was a friend or a family member teaching us how to physically defend ourselves as a kid 6 years old my mom would tell me flat out not to let anyone disrespect me and if someone hit me, then I hit them back and hard. That was the rule that many kids had so it was clear that talking smack and threatening someone could result in that person hitting back.

 

[ShawnP]

No it's not the same. When you learn self-defense you have have to put effort and training into it. It's not enough for someone to tell you "this is what you do and it'll magically work." When it comes to a situation where you have to protect yourself, that self-defense teacher isn't going to be there for you. He or she isn't going to beat up the bully for you. They aren't going to tell you if you should hit first or not. What they will do is give you knowledge of a skill set that you can train in or practice. No matter how good I am with self awareness, I can't make someone equally good. They have to train that and practice that skill set.

I'm a "It takes a village to raise a child." type person. Teachers are role models that not only teach but shape the lives of young people. If a teacher sees that a child's behavior is heading in the wrong direction, then that teacher should address it right there and then. People don't become bullies over night. Most start the behavior at a young age and that behavior isn't addressed by teachers because they think that it's not their jobs or responsibility. As a kid, I almost went down the path of being a bully. I said some mean things to a kid and kept saying it, the teacher caught me and had a one on one talk with me, which made me feel bad and embarrassed about my actions. From that point on I was a different kid. My parents didn't teach me that, my teacher did. Teachers teach and it doesn't have to always be about books. As an adult it's better to address bad behavior in kids and expect parents to do something about. Many times a child will value what a non-family member has to say over a family member. I know this because their are adults who do the same thing, where anything their family says is garbage, but anything someone outside of their family says is gold.

In terms of failure the Martial arts teacher should have instilled values into those 2 kids not to use martial arts that way. People laugh and say that I live in a fantasy world when I tell them that my martial art school doesn't teach people who think have violent behavior like that. We always set an expectation of what it means to be a Jow Ga student, we are blunt and direct about our expectations from the kids in and outside of the school. We let them know right off the back at what types of behavior is acceptable and we don't let it slide. The teacher's may not be able to do much when the fight starts. But before and after such incidents those teachers need to be setting those kids on the right path. If not for your safety then for their safety. Little thugs grow up to be big thugs, the same kids that picked on could easily be the same people that will attack the teacher when they become adults. Problems don't fix themselves. I've seen it in my school where teachers would make an effort to change the direction of a child's life when they see a child going the wrong way. The best time to change their path of destruction is when they aren't in trouble or when they aren't busy picking on someone. I know this work because I've done it all my life and I've seen kids who had the worse attitudes change because I took time out to talk to them even when they weren't in trouble. I have also seen this method fail big time where I wasn't the one that was able to reach the kid and the kid ends up dead because his best friend shot him in the head execution style. In cases like that where, I wasn't the person that had the biggest influence, maybe there was another adult that was who just thought that it wasn't his job or responsibility to help keep a child pointed in the right direction.

Parents aren't always the person that children are most willing to listen to.

I'm sorry JowGaWolf but i still disagree with this and i stand by my belief and my post that the OP was wrong and that the actions of a child s behavior stems from some sort of break down in family structure, so lets just agree to disagree on this subject.

 

[JowGaWolf]

so lets just agree to disagree on this subject.

One of the worse phrases in English, that blows off any attempt to view, listen, or discuss different perspective.

 

[ShawnP]

One of the worse phrases in English, that blows off any attempt to view, listen, or discuss different perspective.

not really, i have said all i have to say, that is my opinion and you disagree with that. i don't know what else there is to discuss?

 

[JowGaWolf]

not really, i have said all i have to say, that is my opinion and you disagree with that. i don't know what else there is to discuss?

If you don't have anything to say then just say that. For me, I try not to get sucked into the "agree vs disagree" conversations in here. I've been trying my best to go back to my old self and just listen. If someone has different perspective then I put it in my "This is what some people think" box. I think those months of me showing videos of me to prove that something was possible sent me on the wrong path in terms of getting sucked into the "agree vs disagree"

And by the way. I wasn't in disagreement or agreement with you. You just share a different perspective than I do and you aren't the only who feels the same way as you do.

 

[The White Ghost]

Kickboxer101-san, you must remember that sometimes to win a fight you must not partake in it. This is but one of many lessons I learned from my sensei before I began my vigilante crusade.

 

[Phobius]

In order to decide not to fight you must first master the fight, otherwise it is called fleeing.

If you have not mastered the fight then of course fleeing is not a good option in school, you simply are forbidden to flee long enough so they will not catch you.
So all your masters are correct, once you have a master you might have enough skill in fighting that you may choose not to fight, but that rule does not apply to someone who does not feel in control.

It is just a phrase that sounds cool for a non-master.

And we are talking about fighting for the sake of survival. If you let a bully beat you, you might not survive school for long.

 

[ShawnP]

In order to decide not to fight you must first master the fight, otherwise it is called fleeing.

HUH? the decision to not fight is there whether or not you even know how to pick your nose....call it what you wish but i see it as avoiding the fight all together is harder to master than actually mastering the fight.

 

[Tames D]

I have a question for ShawnP.
I believe in avoiding a fight whenever possible, but if I'm reading you correctly, you always avoid fighting under any and every circumstance. You made it clear that you believe the OP was wrong for fighting, even after he was physically and verbally attacked repeatedly over a period of time.
So, my question is, do you train in a martial art? If so, what are your reasons for training? Obviously not for self defense. For fitness? That can be done at a gym or at home for far less cost.
We really don't need training to avoid a fight. It can be as simple as running, and hoping the attacker doesn't catch us. But under what circumstance would you stand up and fight someone that is physically attacking you?
So I'm curious as to if, and why, you train in a fighting system. Your Avatar shows a Kempo logo. Do you train in Kempo?

 

[Phobius]

HUH? the decision to not fight is there whether or not you even know how to pick your nose....call it what you wish but i see it as avoiding the fight all together is harder to master than actually mastering the fight.

You can not avoid a fight if you do not have the capabilities to avoid it. In a school environment there is nowhere to flee. A bully will not stop bullying by being talked to. There are no teachers that can help you, because their help will trigger more bullying. So only way to avoid a fight is to be stronger or better than the bully. Either you outsmart him on every turn, you become mentally stronger than any of them or you become a better fighter and you fight them.

There is of course another option that most pick, the one way to avoid fighting a bully. Become a bully yourself. Find someone you can pick on, join their group and pick on those lower than you on the foodchain. This option is not something I condone.

Instead you fight the bully in order to cause less damage. Fight for your own right to exist, and for your own survival and mental health.

It does not sound like you are against fighting, it sounds more as if you fear fighting itself. Fighting should not be feared, it should just be an aim of yours to avoid it whenever possible. When you start putting up rules saying you should never fight, you are missing one crucial aspect. You fight not to beat someone but to avoid people getting hurt. Sometimes fighting is the best way to reduce the amount of pain that will be inflicted.

EDIT: This happend to someone I know well, they chose not to fight a bully out of fear. Turned their back to the bully and walked away. Got hit in the back of the head with a glass and had to go to hospital to treat the injury.

The bully got away with it despite teachers witnessing it. After all they claimed they could not know the person being hit with a glass did not start the fight earlier by saying something bad. Teachers got prosecuted along with the school, and this triggered a more intense and fierce bullying.

Me I chose another path, I fought my way through school. Everybody wanted to pick on a tall guy but after a few fights that interest became weaker. Those I fought in school today I hold no quarrel with and they neither with me, reason being that we can all look at it as kids being stupid.

The person that got a glass in the head still have mental scars from school. Who do you think was the one that avoided fighting in this case? Me that managed to go through most of school without worries due to taking up a fight early on, or the person I know that had to go through all years in school being picked on and beaten?

 

[ShawnP]

Tames D, I have a question for ShawnP.
I believe in avoiding a fight whenever possible, but if I'm reading you correctly, you always avoid fighting under any and every circumstance.
Correct

You made it clear that you believe the OP was wrong for fighting, even after he was physically and verbally attacked repeatedly over a period of time.
Correct, he had an opportunity and a choice to walk away and he chose violence.

So, my question is, do you train in a martial art?
Not any more due to medical issues.

If so, what are your reasons for training?
at first for self defense but as i grew older and more mature my reasoning changed.

Obviously not for self defense.
Yes for self defense.

For fitness? That can be done at a gym or at home for far less cost.
i never really thought of it for fitness.

We really don't need training to avoid a fight. It can be as simple as running, and hoping the attacker doesn't catch us. But under what circumstance would you stand up and fight someone that is physically attacking you?
When there is NO OTHER choice, which is what self defense is for, If some one yells at me i try not to cop an attitude and yell back, OR If someone slaps/hits me i back up/away and i remove myself from that situation by any means and yes by running if necessary. Most of my thinking/reasoning helps me to avoid being in such situations and unfortunateley this is not always the case.


So I'm curious as to if, and why, you train in a fighting system.
As a kid i was bullied every day, i was picked on, beat up, and chased home from school every single day by kids my age and older, as i began High School i figured it would eventually stop but i was wrong. i had some teachings of various types of MAs shown to me by a friend who was taking Fred Villaris, and my older brothers friends who supposedly were part of a group called The Guardian Angels doing some type of Juijitsu, by being their punching bag and letting them do their "techniques" on me. i didn't learn much since i was still just a kid and thought as such until after High School. i just got sick of being picked on (and the reasoning why which is another matter all together) so i went to a real MAs school and how i found it and ended up there is a story for another day too i guess.


Your Avatar shows a Kempo logo. Do you train in Kempo?
Yes i trained in Karaho for 16 years, i have stopped physically training all activities due to medical issues and other personal reasons within that system, but i was trying other things out including Aikido and Iaido since it was a package deal, money became an issue and i just could not continue. Who knows maybe one day if i get better i might be able to train again if not for defense but to learn and for fun. Grand Master Kuoha said to us one time during a visit some thing Professor Chow had said that went some thing to the effect "when a man stops learning maybe its time for him to leave this planet" that has stuck with me since i heard it and i try to learn some thing new every day even if its not MAs related.

and;

To be completely honest with you Tames D, i hate violence and view it as a useless act of vanity. Yes i was bullied as a kid growing up and i am still bullied as an adult but in different ways than when i was a kid, and that was what got me started in the MAs.
I have learned over the years that violence only brought more violence into my life and it made me look at who i was as a person and how i thought, reasoned, and acted out, change the way you react to a situation and you change the outcome of that situation, im not saying everyone can avoid violence completely but i do believe the OP had a choice at the time and chose to resort to violence once again, granted the OP was in High School at the time and probably thinking as such which is why i asked what he would do as an adult and he still chose violence.
i learned a few things from my very good friend and first MAs instructor that i think a lot if not most MAists either forgot or were never taught, and we as people or humans will probably never get unless we evolve. If you can learn to control your emotions, adapt to any given situation, and over come that situation and avoid violence maybe you really are a Master Martial Artist? no?

 

[Phobius]

ShawnP, the whole anti violence policy of yours is admirable. Sadly I also think it is a recipe for constantly living in a world of violence. Sort of like a martial artist that does not wish to be fighting on the ground always tends to end up there. We simply resist too much and as such show our weakness to those that may wish to exploit it.

Now I am against violence as well, but have a different angle. Training martial arts to learn self defense and fighting, I would not hesitate to stand up or fight for my beliefs if necessary. Sorry to say but if anyone wishes to harm people close to me I will fight for their safety. In doing so I keep myself out of violence simply by being ready for it.

It might be a matter of opinion, you are more optimistic thinking if you are nice to people, they will be nice to you. Me on the other hand think in a different way, if I am not someone people can step on, people won't step on me. I make it my choice when and how to fight, I dont constantly avoid it so others can try and make the choice for me.

So if you do not have the ability to chose violence, how can you think to chose non-violence?

Oh and OP did not chose violence, he defended his own position in the hierarchy called school. Not defending his own rights would cause him to lose his dignity and sanity. There is always a reason why people fight back when bullied. Because they do not wish to be bullied any further.

Will it work? You never know unless you try. Would peaceful solution work? Well no, because if he would have come up with a peaceful solution he would not be bullied at this point. It is not like he choice to be bullied and harrassed despite having the option not to. And he no longer has time to find a peaceful solution. His time ran out with his patience.