Warrant? You need those?
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
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Archangel M
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Should have just let the bondsmen do it.
Bail enforcement agents operate in a weird area; a person who is out on bail, backed by the bondsman's money, isn't really "free." They're just not incarcerated... and if they forfeit that bail, various laws and especially an 1872 US Supreme Court ruling have apparently given the bondsman or his agents wide latitude to recover the person and thereby their money.
Additionally, an arrest warrant is a very limited search warrant for the person, at the address which is listed on the face of the warrant. If I have an arrest warrant, and I have probable cause to believe that you are home at the residence listed on the warrant... a law enforcement officer can enter. It's not generally advisable to force entry without a damn good reason... but it can be done. A third party residence still requires a search warrant.
With all that said... Personally, there are damn few bail enforcement agents I'd trust. I had a pair once wanting me to arrest someone on their assurance that there was a bench warrant. Well... I asked for a copy. No luck; their boss was telling them it existed. Run the suspect through NCIC; no hit. Call the courthouse in question... and they don't know anything about it. :shrug: We refused to make that arrest... And these two, other than not having their ducks in a row, were reasonably professional about it. Unlike the one who, without so much as a courtesy "we're doing this here" created a hostage barricade in my jurisdiction... Or the freak show that is Duane Chapman and everyone who thinks he's a model of the industry.
The details listed in these accounts are a little sketchy. It sure sounds like the deputies screwed up, though, since it appears that they violated their agency policies.
Additionally, an arrest warrant is a very limited search warrant for the person, at the address which is listed on the face of the warrant. If I have an arrest warrant, and I have probable cause to believe that you are home at the residence listed on the warrant... a law enforcement officer can enter. It's not generally advisable to force entry without a damn good reason... but it can be done. A third party residence still requires a search warrant.
With all that said... Personally, there are damn few bail enforcement agents I'd trust. I had a pair once wanting me to arrest someone on their assurance that there was a bench warrant. Well... I asked for a copy. No luck; their boss was telling them it existed. Run the suspect through NCIC; no hit. Call the courthouse in question... and they don't know anything about it. :shrug: We refused to make that arrest... And these two, other than not having their ducks in a row, were reasonably professional about it. Unlike the one who, without so much as a courtesy "we're doing this here" created a hostage barricade in my jurisdiction... Or the freak show that is Duane Chapman and everyone who thinks he's a model of the industry.
The details listed in these accounts are a little sketchy. It sure sounds like the deputies screwed up, though, since it appears that they violated their agency policies.
LuckyKBoxer
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The woman needs to sure both the bail bondsman, the cops, and the police department. This sort of behavior should not be tolerated.
All I can say is these cops and bailbondsmen are lucky someone more militant about their rights and armed was not in this house, it could of, and probably should have gotten pretty violent.
All I can say is these cops and bailbondsmen are lucky someone more militant about their rights and armed was not in this house, it could of, and probably should have gotten pretty violent.
Archangel M
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There is also a difference between "I see you walk into a house and know you are in there" vs. "I have a tip that you stay in this house".
OP
- Thread Starter
- #6
Out of curiosity, a "Bail Bondsman" is not a Law Enforcement Agent right?
cdunn
2nd Black Belt
Nope; they're not LEOs. That's another way that they're in a weird area. Technically, when a bondsman posts your bond, he's saying that he's going to make sure you attend trial. You're really released into his custody, in a lot of ways.
In some states, you don't need any training at all to be a bail enforcement agent. In others, you may need a PI license (because you're undertaking an investigation if you try to locate the person) or other special licensing and training, and further licensing to carry a gun. Virginia's requirements are HERE. Code section 9.1-186.12 is particularly relevant to this discussion. As far as I can tell, odds are good that the actions would have been in violation of Virginia law.
In some states, you don't need any training at all to be a bail enforcement agent. In others, you may need a PI license (because you're undertaking an investigation if you try to locate the person) or other special licensing and training, and further licensing to carry a gun. Virginia's requirements are HERE. Code section 9.1-186.12 is particularly relevant to this discussion. As far as I can tell, odds are good that the actions would have been in violation of Virginia law.
Agreed! Not sure of the policy where I work, but we do often take calls from bondsmen, stating that they're heading to an address to attempt to pick up a party. I always ask if they need PD to assist, and the answer has always been no, but if they do, they will call. So basically in may case, its more of a headsup than anything else.
OP
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- #10
So, since they aren't a cop, putting the boots to one whos entered your house uninvited isn't bad?
LuckyKBoxer
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it is completely fine unless you are harboring the fugitive in question, and if you are and they can prove it, your toast.
cdunn
2nd Black Belt
If the Bondsmen are after you, it is because you signed a contract which contains, either implicitly or explicitly, the permission to pursue you should you not report to court when ordered to. They are the private and commercial solution to the problem of skipping bail.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #13
I understand that, but if I shoot a cop in the dark who I didn't hear ID himself, I'm in "Really Deep DooDoo (tm)". But these guys it would be shooting someone who did a break and enter, or unauthorized enter, or trespassing, etc. I think. I not familiar with how they are seen under law as far as how far they are authorized to act without legal fall out. A cop needs a warrant, I assume they do too. They can't just break into my house, tackle me, beat me across the head with a Maglite and shoot my dog because I skipped a court date. Can they?
(Replace shooting with smacking, hitting, mooning, fondling, whatever seems appropriate)
(Replace shooting with smacking, hitting, mooning, fondling, whatever seems appropriate)
cdunn
2nd Black Belt
They do not need a warrant to detain you - The critical difference between a bail bondsman and the cops is this: The cops are arresting you on suspicion of criminal offense. The warrant exists not only as a check on the power of the policeman, but primarily on the political power of the structure that commands the policeman - Your Republican mayor cannot detain you for voting Democratic, etc.
However, in the case that a bounty hunter is after your ***, then you have already been processed past your arrest warrant. You have entered into agreement (pdf) with a bond company and the court: Taking the bond company's money as assurance of your reappearance in court, the court has legally made that company responsible for making sure your butt ends up in court. That is the warrant! The bondsman can come into your home, which may or may not technically belong to him at the time anyway, and take you in, because you have agreed that he can. Putting a bullet in him is not self defense.
Where things become iffy is when you are on third party property- technically, the third party is not a part of this agreement, and must consent to allow the hunter onto their property. If refused, an officer of the law may or may not be able to obtain a warrant to enter the property and arrest both you and the property owner, and turn you back over to the bondsman.
Of course, there are a total of two countries in the world where things are F*d up like this.
However, in the case that a bounty hunter is after your ***, then you have already been processed past your arrest warrant. You have entered into agreement (pdf) with a bond company and the court: Taking the bond company's money as assurance of your reappearance in court, the court has legally made that company responsible for making sure your butt ends up in court. That is the warrant! The bondsman can come into your home, which may or may not technically belong to him at the time anyway, and take you in, because you have agreed that he can. Putting a bullet in him is not self defense.
Where things become iffy is when you are on third party property- technically, the third party is not a part of this agreement, and must consent to allow the hunter onto their property. If refused, an officer of the law may or may not be able to obtain a warrant to enter the property and arrest both you and the property owner, and turn you back over to the bondsman.
Of course, there are a total of two countries in the world where things are F*d up like this.
