walking away

[hand2handCombat]

a martial artists last resort is always fighting. especially when theres just a exchange of words. but in public, where ppl are staring..waiting for a fight, if they push you from behind, snapping your neck back a bit. will you turn around and push back?(in a way starting the actual fight)or just walk away?

i know i would turn around and teach him a lesson

 

[Jay Bell]

hrmm...

The thing about big crowds is that there are always multiple attackers. They may not become part of the situation in a physical way...but the opportunity exists. Turning around and focusing all of your attention on one person that pushes from behind is hazardous to your health.

I've seen many ground crowds where onlookers get so hyped up by what is happening that they jump in...just to show everyone how 'tough' they are.

A smile goes a long way...

 

[Chiduce]

I feel this is a good example of the type of training the martial artist is exposed to in the dojo. If he/she has been trained in turning the other cheek; that is what is going to happen. If he/she is trained to respond in kind with speed, power, and efficiency in striking; this is what will happen. As for the possible attacker's? This is a very real possibility, depending on the mindset of the crowd. Now, if the dojo/school teaches some form of reality training; the transition from victim to defender will flow smoother, which will allow the defender to make a quick, and mature assessment of the surroundings for proper response! Thus, if the studies of, for example "feeling attention in total body being" (The Cheng Shou Work) etc, are combined within some form of reality training; the possibility of the defender using the proper method of retaliation is increased proportionally to the level of martial defensive skill which he/she has attained. The white belt's best decision may just be to walk away. The yellow belt's decision may be to feel the touching hand/hands and quickly turn while trapping the wrist and break a finger or thumb, or even wrist to escape. The orange belt may feel the attacker's intent turn and kick the lead knee and break it, then escape. The brown belt may feel the attacker intent, turn trap and strike to a well exposed vital area and severely damage the attacker to get the crowd's attention so that they have to assist the (attacker turned victim) for escaping; etc, etc, etc,! These responses are only hypothetical, while each would have the choice to walk away; it would be safe to assume that the practitioner's level of defensive reality skills and his/her respective abilities of this skill applications, would be the deciding factor in the defensive response/(s) used by the practitioner.
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[sweeper]

well I wouldn't "teach someone a lesson", that is to say I wouldn't look at it that way, if someone is pushing for a fight I'm gona look for a way to leave, if I can't leave and they actualy start pushing and I think it's gona escalate I think I would just hit em. That's only if I think there is no way out, I mean I realy don't want to fight but in my opinion if someone isn't letting up you don't think they will let up and they are getting physical your safest way out is to run if you cna't run than hit and run.

 

[Danny]

Well first if someone pushed me I would definately not turn my back again.

Anyway, normally I would just walk anyway. However I feel that their are resonable limits to the abuse you should have to put up with before acting. For example a few years ago when I was in junior high, can't remember exactly what happened but I ended up getting a little bit of mustard on this guys shirt. He was with a group, and obviously wanted to look like a tough guy in front of his friends. He grabbed me, and told me to lick it off. I politely declined. Being a coward as I have found most tought guys are, in a school eviroment at least, he backed down. A few minutes later as I was eating my lunch he walked up behind me, took an orange, and squeezed orange juice all over me. He had just reached my limit. Again being a coward he took off running. Long story short I ran him down, put him in a choke hold on the run, and ended up on top of him still in a choke hold with my knee firmly planted in his back. (He wasn't hurt beyond the imidiate pain of landing on the floor with someone on top of him.) At that point we had a "friendly chat" before a teacher came along and broke it up. Got suspended for it, but again I feel that was a resonable response to that level of provocation.

 

[Wertle]

Right now, my best method of defense is not getting into fights ^_^

I know it all depends on the situation, but in the scenario you described, i would most certainly walk away, *especially* if there were onlookers. On the uphand, if the person did continue, and I did have to do something about it, there'd be plenty of witnesses.

 

[tonbo]

Me, I would walk away. Why? A number of reasons:

I have a wife and two kids, a good job, and quite a happy life. I don't want to risk damaging any of that by going to jail or going to court after being sued for using excessive force, or for hurting some poor schmoe beyond what was necessary.

I don't have that big of an ego. Someone pushes me, *they* have a problem, not me. If I have offended someone by walking on their turf, I'll apologize. If I step on toes, I'll apologize. It isn't worth getting in a fight over someone's perceived slight. If I have to back down a little bit and look like a wimp, and if this will save a little bloodshed, hell.....my ego can take a swipe. I'll recover from that.

Now, on the other hand....if someone *seriously* threatens my life, my family, or the lives/safety of others, and there is no way to talk the situation down, *then* I will open up the can. I will open only as much as needs to be used, and then stop. If I have hurt someone seriously as a result, I will do what I can to fix that--I am not an executioner, nor is anyone's future mine to decide.

In short, I have lived through enough experiences to realize that there are always those who want a fight......but they most often don't fight, and *can't* fight, someone who admits they made a mistake and back down. If they are deadly serious about something, then they are most often desperate, and need to be handled appropriately.

Most fights (especially the schoolyard variety) are all about ego and one person not wanting to back down. I don't advocate being a wimp 100% of the time, but I don't think you need to risk the good things *you* may have to prove how cool or tough you are.

Ask yourself honestly: What can your ego handle? Is the fight worth saving the ego?

Peace--

 

[Wertle]

Good thoughts, tonbo. It reminds me of a discussion I had with my class and instructor once.

Something he did (and recommended doing) was took some time to sit down and make a list of what was really worth fighting for. After he made the list, he went over each one, and really gave it some serious thought to see if it was really worth it. Needless to say, his final list was very short.

I think it's a good idea to do, if not just for the thought-provoking aspect, but because it's a good idea to figure out where you stand *now* when you're safe and sound. If you end up having to decide what's worth it when the fight actually starts, you could hesitate, second-guess, use excessive force, etc etc, and basically end up in a fix.

Also, you may end up with things on your list that, when you really think about, aren't really worth it.

Has anyone done this or something similar?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by tonbo

Me, I would walk away. Why? A number of reasons:

I have a wife and two kids, a good job, and quite a happy life. I don't want to risk damaging any of that by going to jail or going to court after being sued for using excessive force, or for hurting some poor schmoe beyond what was necessary.

I don't have that big of an ego. Someone pushes me, *they* have a problem, not me. If I have offended someone by walking on their turf, I'll apologize. If I step on toes, I'll apologize. It isn't worth getting in a fight over someone's perceived slight. If I have to back down a little bit and look like a wimp, and if this will save a little bloodshed, hell.....my ego can take a swipe. I'll recover from that.

Now, on the other hand....if someone *seriously* threatens my life, my family, or the lives/safety of others, and there is no way to talk the situation down, *then* I will open up the can. I will open only as much as needs to be used, and then stop. If I have hurt someone seriously as a result, I will do what I can to fix that--I am not an executioner, nor is anyone's future mine to decide.

In short, I have lived through enough experiences to realize that there are always those who want a fight......but they most often don't fight, and *can't* fight, someone who admits they made a mistake and back down. If they are deadly serious about something, then they are most often desperate, and need to be handled appropriately.

Most fights (especially the schoolyard variety) are all about ego and one person not wanting to back down. I don't advocate being a wimp 100% of the time, but I don't think you need to risk the good things *you* may have to prove how cool or tough you are.

Ask yourself honestly: What can your ego handle? Is the fight worth saving the ego?

Peace--

Great Post Tonbo,

Thank you for your words, I happen to agree with them a lot.

Many times absorbing the names or the jeers, allows the person with the ego to leave with out loosing face or honor. And what have they truly done to you? ? ?

And when there is no hope and the threat is unavoidable to you and your family, then you do what is required and only what is required.

As for teaching people a lesson, I found those that were willing to hand out lessons easily to others, usually found someone to 'TEACH' them a lesson. Some, even survived the lessons taught them. Listen to Wertle, and review what it is you are truly willing to fight / 'die' for.

Good Training to all and have a nice day

Rich

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

a martial artists last resort is always fighting. especially when theres just a exchange of words. but in public, where ppl are staring..waiting for a fight, if they push you from behind, snapping your neck back a bit. will you turn around and push back?(in a way starting the actual fight)or just walk away?

i know i would turn around and teach him a lesson

As tonbo said, what if you hit him and he fell and hit his head on the ground and died? There was a real case. A road rage situation. 2 guys got out. The young guy hit the old guy. The old guy fell and hit his head. DOA. The kid is going away for 25 yrs.

 

[sweeper]

ok well I think that's BS, if someone dies unintentionaly but as a secondary result of a fight that realy should be sonsidered 3rd degree not second.

 

[KennethKu]

BS or not, the legal test is "he wouldn't have died if NOT for the action of the defendent" . He got 25yrs.

Here is another case that might piss you off. This kid was jealous over his girl friend been at her ex-boy friend's house. He kicked open the front door and punched the ex-boy friend in the face. No big deal. A slap in the hands and pay for the damage, right? He got 25 yrs!! "Breaking into a home to assault the occuppant" Yep. The case made huge out cry. The last I heard he has been in jail for 3-4 yrs now waiting for a pardon. Could have been out by now. I didn't follow the case.

 

[tonbo]

I hate to bring this up, but here's something I learned some time back about the legality of threats and the following responsibilities.....

Suppose I point an unloaded gun at someone and tell them I'm going to shoot them dead. They turn and run, trip over something, and crack their skull, killing them. You can still be prosecuted for murder. The basis for this is that the person believed the threat enough, and it was your intention (key word) to cause the death, therefore, it is murder.

Twisted as it may be, that was the way the law read. Sad, but true.

Still, it's better to be really careful.....

Peace--

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by tonbo

Suppose I point an unloaded gun at someone and tell them I'm going to shoot them dead. They turn and run, trip over something, and crack their skull, killing them. You can still be prosecuted for murder. The basis for this is that the person believed the threat enough, and it was your intention (key word) to cause the death, therefore, it is murder.

Twisted as it may be, that was the way the law read. Sad, but true.

I disagree about that being a sad outcome. What would you say if someone pointed a gun at you and said they were going to kill you? Defend yourself, right? I mean, other people were going to defend themselves over less. What if they died? Well it was self defense. What if it was unloaded at the time? Well... I didn't know... I was just defending myself...

Now, what's your defense? Should you be charged with murder because you killed an unarmed man? You'd probably get off because you thought the threat was real and you reacted to it.

If you have a gun, threaten someone, and the victim dies, you were the cause, like it or not, and you pay the penalty. The outcome was as if it were loaded and you pulled the trigger.

Hopefully that will make people think about playing with guns in the future.

WhiteBirch

 

[Wertle]

One of my classmates in my art is a lawyer, and one night we took part of the class to have him explain to us the ins and outs of all the legal stuff surrounding self defense. A lot of it was common sense, but we did discuss these sort of "what if" issues that keep popping up. It was very helpful and informative, there were many new specific things that I learned.

Going over your state's self defense laws might make for a good end-of-class discussion. Has anyone done this?

 

[tonbo]

I disagree about that being a sad outcome.

You are actually right, WhiteBirch, and I will agree with that. However, I was speaking out of context on that particular quote, and I didn't realize it until re-reading that post just now.

Over the last two years, I have been involved indirectly in a frivolous lawsuit (against a member of my family). I have seen the law twisted, perverted, and maimed by the person who brought the lawsuit. I have seen them get every loophole imagineable, even when they have flaunted the law for their own purposes. I have become a bit cynical about certain aspects of the way the justice system works.

However, it is still the justice system. I agree that, if you cause someone's death or injury by stupid actions such as I mentioned, you are still the cause of death, and you should pay the price.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.....sometimes, I just start rambling, and don't pay attention where I should.

Peace--

 

[sweeper]

I agree with you on that but realy what pisses me off isn't so much that he got 25 years but rather if he accidentaly hit someone in his car he might not even go to jail and if he intentionaly hit someone in his car he might be out in 5-10 years, it's the inconsistance of our laws that bugs me, not simply people twisting them. And I have also seen some pritty messed up stuff in the justice system. But than again I also think the system is somewhat antiquated to begin with.

 

[hand2handCombat]

the problem with the story of the jeleaous boyfriend is that guy 1)broke in
2) wasnt defending himslef. but i understandn your perspective.

i honestly think the law is too sensitive. i mean your cant take away 25 years of someones life just becuase he kicked a door down and hit someone. definatly not worth taking 25 years of someons life away

 

[KennethKu]

Yes of course you all are correct.

In the road rage case, he would get off in 7 max if he had run over that guy instead. Still, if it was your father or brother that was the victim, you would wish the guy got life. Heck the victim got life, for all purpose.

In the second case, the law was screwed up. You would think the DA, the judge would have some common sense. If the kid has money and connection, he would have gotten a Governor's pardon in no time and became the poster boy of the injustice in the system.

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by KennethKu

In the second case, the law was screwed up. You would think the DA, the judge would have some common sense. If the kid has money and connection, he would have gotten a Governor's pardon in no time and became the poster boy of the injustice in the system.

I assume you're talking about the guy breaking in and attacking his girlfriend's ex.

I don't understand the injustice of this, other than he *may* have gotten more time than *we* think he should. I always take talk like this with a grain of salt until I actually see information about the case, rather than third- and fouth-hand conversations. But as was pointed out earlier, he did break in and attack without provocation. Based on that alone, he's definitely guilty. Now if we saw what the judge and jury saw, we might come to the same conclusion about his sentence... There are always extenuating circumstances that let it go either way.

Now I'm not saying the justice system is perfect, but it sure beats a lot of alternatives. Besides, people spend a lot of time looking for loopholes and "playing the game." The lawmakers have a hard enough time determining what should be law, let alone making it fool-proof. They sometimes hit; they sometimes miss. The judge doesn't have a lot of latitude when it comes to specific cases. They are bound by the law and interpretations that have been made of it by other courts.

WhiteBirch