Well said sir.... Well said.
:asian:
Violent Pacifism
- Thread starter Matt Stone
- Start date
Well said sir.... Well said.
:asian:
E
Elfan
Guest
Generally speaking the tiny minority of nutballs tend to get disporportionate attention. Think abortion, 1 guy going into an abortion clinic and killing people gets far more attention that millions of people who may also be "pro-life." However, he is in no way representative of those millions. A few guys in a protest burnings flags will get more attention that a hundred thousand at the same protest waveing them.
K
Kirk
Guest
If that's your experience, fine .. but that's not the case in the
anti war protests that I have personally witness. The nutballs
are definitely in the majority. Most often, they can't even spell
protest.
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Though I thought the tesosterone remark was really mildly funny, I'm sorry to see that some folks still can't discuss ideas without turning to personal attacks.
Kirk, the measure of being an American--or a man, for that matter--is not whether or not someone agrees with you.
Sorry you don't like me--of course, you don't even know me--and sorry if you don't like my ideas and arguments.
Anybody got any evidence that Hussein had anything to do with Sept. 11? Anybody relish the idea that we'll just keep getting into petty war after petty war, 'till we've run all them varmints out of town? Anybody wonder how the hell we're gonna pay for all this? Anybody worried about consequences?
Thanks; interesting discussion.
Kirk, the measure of being an American--or a man, for that matter--is not whether or not someone agrees with you.
Sorry you don't like me--of course, you don't even know me--and sorry if you don't like my ideas and arguments.
Anybody got any evidence that Hussein had anything to do with Sept. 11? Anybody relish the idea that we'll just keep getting into petty war after petty war, 'till we've run all them varmints out of town? Anybody wonder how the hell we're gonna pay for all this? Anybody worried about consequences?
Thanks; interesting discussion.
K
Kirk
Guest
There has NEVER EVER NOT ONCE been a thread on kenponet,
when dealing with political discussions, that you have not insulted
me. You're right, I don't like you .. but it's because of the barrage
of personal attacks that you have launched at me for simply
wanting to get a discussion going. You've called me a
homophobe, a racist, a zionist, a redneck, and Rush follower,
stupid, illiterate, and close minded. The testosterone comment
WAS in fact a joke, yet had a point as well. You're in the minority
of the opinion (IMO of course) that meeting violent people with
a flower is the only and best way to stop it.
Where did I say it was?
In the year and a half that I've been in kenpo and on the internet
the fact that you and I don't know each other hasn't stopped your
barrage. I most often don't like your ideas and arguments .. at
one point I thought I could actually learn something from you,
because I like to believe that I keep an open mind, and am willing
to listen to facts presented. But you chose to insult me at every
whim ... and of course, you don't even know me.
All that aside, I thought I made a good attempt at addressing the
case you presented in your previous post, without resorting to
the same tactics you've repeatedly used on me. It's happened
between you and I, when discussing kenpo, but hasn't ever
happened when discussing anything else. Nightengale and I
are on VERY different platforms, politically .. yet we've never once
called each other a name. Why is that?
Yes, the federal government does. Via his financial backing.
Well that wasn't brought before. How about another thread
on that very subject? But if it's going to be a thread on how
you're pursuing a utopian society where we all get together and
sign kumbaya, let me know ahead of time, I'll avoid it entirely and
give you your peace. If you want an intellectual debate, without
insult, I'm game. But Mr Pot .. don't call the kettle black.
You're welcome :shrug:
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Elfan
Guest
No Sadamn had nothing to do with the attacks.
M
MountainSage
Guest
Kirk,
you have got to quit jumping when liberal try to ruff your feathers. Your not going to change their minds and their usually just trying to get a person mad to show how irrational a "redneck" can be. Besides that not reacting keep your blood pressure up and motivate you to do ALOT of punching bag workouts, I Know.
Mountain Sage
you have got to quit jumping when liberal try to ruff your feathers. Your not going to change their minds and their usually just trying to get a person mad to show how irrational a "redneck" can be. Besides that not reacting keep your blood pressure up and motivate you to do ALOT of punching bag workouts, I Know.
Mountain Sage
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rmcrobertson
Guest
I appreciate what you're saying, but I NEVER write simply to provoke. I'm presenting another side of the issue, or so I like to think, after writing nothing for quite a while.
Oh, and I ain't a liberal.
Oh, and I ain't a liberal.
D
Disco
Guest
sOUND LIKE A POLITICAN?
In all seriousness, I think that our problem(s) with the middle east are just starting. This war, for whatever idealistic or financial reasoning, in all probability will solve nothing except to get our own sons and daughters killed. I am against sending our troops over there. What we should do IMHO, is use the technology we have to ANNIHILATE the whole lot of em. I know, I know, sounds very harsh and inhumane. Many have already forgotten that this country has been attacked and innocent lives were taken. There are several generations who have been brainwashed / indoctrinated into just plain hating the United States. Common logic cannot change this lifestyle mindset. I've watched several news / viewpoint programs which asked the youth of the middle east their viewpoints. Without hesitation, everyone of them responded with bringing the U.S. to it's knees. These are just from the present generation. The prior generations are / have been sent forth to live in this country and at the appointed time, you know what will happen!!!....
If we have learned anything from Vietnam, is that you can't determine who the enemy is any more. So with that statement, mabey it's time to re-validate the ending we used for WWII against Japan. Perhaps then all the other growing 3rd world wannabe's (N.K) will have to think more than twice before the do something inflamatory. I have a personal vested interest in the middle east. I have two sons who are both as we speak, in harms way. So YES, my button has been pushed........:soapbox:
In all seriousness, I think that our problem(s) with the middle east are just starting. This war, for whatever idealistic or financial reasoning, in all probability will solve nothing except to get our own sons and daughters killed. I am against sending our troops over there. What we should do IMHO, is use the technology we have to ANNIHILATE the whole lot of em. I know, I know, sounds very harsh and inhumane. Many have already forgotten that this country has been attacked and innocent lives were taken. There are several generations who have been brainwashed / indoctrinated into just plain hating the United States. Common logic cannot change this lifestyle mindset. I've watched several news / viewpoint programs which asked the youth of the middle east their viewpoints. Without hesitation, everyone of them responded with bringing the U.S. to it's knees. These are just from the present generation. The prior generations are / have been sent forth to live in this country and at the appointed time, you know what will happen!!!....
If we have learned anything from Vietnam, is that you can't determine who the enemy is any more. So with that statement, mabey it's time to re-validate the ending we used for WWII against Japan. Perhaps then all the other growing 3rd world wannabe's (N.K) will have to think more than twice before the do something inflamatory. I have a personal vested interest in the middle east. I have two sons who are both as we speak, in harms way. So YES, my button has been pushed........:soapbox:
OP
OP
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
And just for the sake of argument, you know this how?
bdparsons
Black Belt
posted the following towards the beginning of this thread...
"I think its as hipocritical as the anti-choice folks who blow up clinics and kill people...how can you call yourself pro-life when you're a murderer?"
As someone who is "pro-life" I totally agree with your statement. However I'm also struck by the hypocrisy of the term "pro-choice". How much "choice" does the child have in an abortion?
Bill Parsons
"I think its as hipocritical as the anti-choice folks who blow up clinics and kill people...how can you call yourself pro-life when you're a murderer?"
As someone who is "pro-life" I totally agree with your statement. However I'm also struck by the hypocrisy of the term "pro-choice". How much "choice" does the child have in an abortion?
Bill Parsons
I'd like to propose another scenario. One that can eliminate the war, make America Strong again, and SHUT EVERYONE UP, the Protesters, the Countries who are against us, everyone. I didn't originate the idea. It's even a BAD BAD idea, that was presented to show the harm it could do, and I believe thier assessment of it.
FORTRESS AMERICA.
America recalls all troops, abandons and dismantles ALL millitary bases overseas and EVERYWHERE. We SEAL our borders, EXECUTE all illegal aliens still in the US at that time. Cut off all trade, Import and Export. No money or aid to any foriegn nation. No travel, no Tourism. Just build and stockpile internally and gain military strength.
The Middle east can certainly stop whining how they need to destroy us because we have too much involvemnet there.
Of course, all the countries depending on us for Trade, Economic Support, Free money, relief aid durring times of disaster, etc etc. are all out of luck. And that kills a handfull of US buisnesses so be it. And if say, I dunno, Germany rises up and conquers France, so be it. Then they move on to England, sweep across europe, and begin on the Soviets, so be it. Not our problem. It doesnt become our problem untill somone thinks they are big enough and yough enough to cross our borders "For No Reason" since we are completely separatists from the rest of the world.
Can you see why this cannot work? But I PERSONALLY see it as the only real alternative to war with nations that want to see us destroyed. After all, you have 2 choices when someone smacks you down with a Bat... Fight back, or Run.
I suppose You can stand there and Go "Oww, that was bad why me?" as a third option, I suppose, if you wanna get killed by the guy with the Bat. Which Is what I feel most of the people who object to this war would like us to do.
Lets not forget, we didnt go to war to go to war. Its not about OIL. America was like a dragon awoken from its slumber by a "Crusading Knight waving his mighty Sword for Allah" because he didnt like the notion of dragons, and now that it's awake it's rampaging across the counrtyside smashing everyone who stands in front of it weilding a sword, Instead of trying to placate it and try and put it back to sleep.
FORTRESS AMERICA.
America recalls all troops, abandons and dismantles ALL millitary bases overseas and EVERYWHERE. We SEAL our borders, EXECUTE all illegal aliens still in the US at that time. Cut off all trade, Import and Export. No money or aid to any foriegn nation. No travel, no Tourism. Just build and stockpile internally and gain military strength.
The Middle east can certainly stop whining how they need to destroy us because we have too much involvemnet there.
Of course, all the countries depending on us for Trade, Economic Support, Free money, relief aid durring times of disaster, etc etc. are all out of luck. And that kills a handfull of US buisnesses so be it. And if say, I dunno, Germany rises up and conquers France, so be it. Then they move on to England, sweep across europe, and begin on the Soviets, so be it. Not our problem. It doesnt become our problem untill somone thinks they are big enough and yough enough to cross our borders "For No Reason" since we are completely separatists from the rest of the world.
Can you see why this cannot work? But I PERSONALLY see it as the only real alternative to war with nations that want to see us destroyed. After all, you have 2 choices when someone smacks you down with a Bat... Fight back, or Run.
I suppose You can stand there and Go "Oww, that was bad why me?" as a third option, I suppose, if you wanna get killed by the guy with the Bat. Which Is what I feel most of the people who object to this war would like us to do.
Lets not forget, we didnt go to war to go to war. Its not about OIL. America was like a dragon awoken from its slumber by a "Crusading Knight waving his mighty Sword for Allah" because he didnt like the notion of dragons, and now that it's awake it's rampaging across the counrtyside smashing everyone who stands in front of it weilding a sword, Instead of trying to placate it and try and put it back to sleep.
E
Elfan
Guest
There is no evidence that he was.
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
In the first place, our government has provided no evidence whatsoever that ol' Hussein had anything to do with Sept. 11. Call me crazy, I like facts--especially because, and I am sorry to say it, but the US has a long sad history of launching into wars with no evidence or faked evidence--there's the Spanish-Am. War, there's Vietnam. You can look it up.
If you find this a defense of a murdering, sadistic, greedy SOB like Hussein, well, I don't. I guess I just like my government to tell me the truth, and to avoid getting soldiers killed unless there's a darn good reason...and maybe there is. But so far, they sure haven't presented one.
Are we really supposed to go around the world and get rid of every tin-pot Hitler? Is that gonna work? What about our record of supporting (Ferdinand Marcos, Somoza, Noriega, Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, Nguyen Cao Ky, etc. etc. etc.) these guys when it suits our purposes?
Personally, if a 500-lb bomb falls directly onto Hussein, I say it's a good day. "I've got a little list...they never will be missed." But ignoring the history....nope.
I hope to hell I'm wrong.
If you find this a defense of a murdering, sadistic, greedy SOB like Hussein, well, I don't. I guess I just like my government to tell me the truth, and to avoid getting soldiers killed unless there's a darn good reason...and maybe there is. But so far, they sure haven't presented one.
Are we really supposed to go around the world and get rid of every tin-pot Hitler? Is that gonna work? What about our record of supporting (Ferdinand Marcos, Somoza, Noriega, Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, Nguyen Cao Ky, etc. etc. etc.) these guys when it suits our purposes?
Personally, if a 500-lb bomb falls directly onto Hussein, I say it's a good day. "I've got a little list...they never will be missed." But ignoring the history....nope.
I hope to hell I'm wrong.
OP
OP
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
And just for the sake of argument, you know this how?
My point is that we, the People, don't have access to the intelligence gathered by our side, nor the other countries in the coalition.
Dubya and Powell claim we have evidence of Saddam's support of Al-Qaeda. At some point I have to have at least some small amount of faith in my Government and trust that they have the evidence they claim they have.
There is sufficient anecdotal evidence at this point, based on reports from folks who have had interactions with Iraqis who claim they want Saddam out of power but are too afraid of the torture and rape consequences to overthrow him themselves, to warrant our involvement. If the evidence really does exist that Saddam and his regime assisted the Al-Qaeda folks in doing what they did to us, how can we not retaliate for such an attack?
There are far too many people who feel that the Government needs to reveal everything to the public for accountability before they take any action. If half of the folks who ***** publicly about the war actually voted, then maybe they would have a reason to want accountability to be made. However, there is something to the argument that you don't tell the criminal you are watching him when you are trying to catch him in the act, and you don't tell your attacker you are about to kick him in the groin just before you do it...
Sure, it may not be "our job" to clean up the little ***** holes around the world, but if we don't, who will? There are some folks that just have no business being around. At some point they need to be called out and taken down. My pa told me once upon a time that sometimes you have to go to the bully and kick his *** before he comes down to your yard to kick yours... Pre-emptive strikes work, sometimes...
Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:
M
MountainSage
Guest
It seem most of the folks on this list that are against the war would be glad to see saddam meet his end in a violent way. This is very curious, you want the results, but not the work to get the results. No point just very interesting. Disco, I agree with your statement and must admit that I don't have loved ones in this war, so to a point, for me, this is an academic debate. I support the troops to the end, but my opinions are academic when the battle began.
Mountain Sage
Mountain Sage
K
Kirk
Guest
LOL .. I honestly was calm cool and collected in this entire thread.
I just suck at writing I guess.
K
Kirk
Guest
Nothing to really argue with there, but note Yiliquan's comment
about faith below your post. And proof aside, I feel there's no
arguing he supports, and trains terrorists of his own.
how much "choice" does the 14 year old rape victim have in the matter either?
Personally, abortion isn't something I'd ever choose. However, I don't know other people's circumstances, so I don't presume to make that choice for them. That's all the phrase "pro-choice" means. Pro-choice is not necessiarily pro-abortion. Its about making a personal choice and giving others the right to do the same.
I would ask, why would Hussein support Al-Quaeda?
Hussein's government is just the sort that Bin-Laden is trying to overthrow. Islamic fundamentalists are the primary destabilising influence in Iraq, as shown by the uprisings by Shia Muslims in the south of the country.
Why have faith in your government, if what they are saying clearly contradicts common sense, unless of course you willfully ignore the truth about Hussein and Al-Quaeda?
Know your enemy.
Know your politicians too.
Hussein's government is just the sort that Bin-Laden is trying to overthrow. Islamic fundamentalists are the primary destabilising influence in Iraq, as shown by the uprisings by Shia Muslims in the south of the country.
Why have faith in your government, if what they are saying clearly contradicts common sense, unless of course you willfully ignore the truth about Hussein and Al-Quaeda?
Know your enemy.
Know your politicians too.
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