vigilanties..........

[Bammx2]

I have a question...why do good,decent,law abiding citizens get screwed for defending themselves against the criminal element these days?

I see way too many people saying career criminals have more rights than thier victims.Is that why its really called the "criminal justice system"?
I am an american that lives and teaches in the UK and I have seen bizzare ways the law in both countries treat people the days when it comes to self-defence...and quite frankly,it makes me wanna puke.
It seems nowadays...if a person breaks into your home..in the middle of the night...you have to ask for a resume' and inquire just exactly what his intentions are before you can justify bashing the living crap out of him for being in your house, un-invited.
In the UK,that holds especially true.
In a lot of physical confrontations....you have to be bashed FIRST before you can defend yourself,or stabbed,or shot..or whatever.
Some just know whats comming...call it the 6th sense or intuition.....so what happend to "a good defense is a good offense"?
If you can run...then by all means HAUL A$$! If you can't...you might wanna reconsider that "first punch"...screw what the courts are gonna say.
Now before some of you jump to conclusions....I do NOT teach my students to be vigilanties...nor will I allow them to be victims if they can help it.
There is a thread of a man who dropped 3 people at a baseball game....good on him! Its punk @$$'$ like that who mess it up for the rest of us and its damn time we, as a nation AND as neighbors, took THIER privilages away so people can have a good time again and not fear things like a baseball game!
I bet not one person offered to help him.sad.
Now granted..not everyone can fight..but there is NO reason for ANYONE to cop an attitude against someone who is willing to stand up for those who can't..or won't.
Has Honour and Chivalry become a dead concept? Has "love thy neighbor" and "I am my brothers keeper" been left by the roadside in trade for "sucks to be him" and "as long as its not me....."?
Just because you stand your ground does not make you a criminal...invading others does that. And if you KNOW you and yours are in trouble....it doesn't make you a criminal to get that first lick in either.
I may have worded a few things wrong here,but this is the shortest version of "soap-boxin" I have ever done..and for that I apologise to those I have offended.
I am very interested what opinions are in return....

 

[dubljay]

May i direct your attention to this thread

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15528

It is this kind of action/attitude that has earned martial artists treatment like this in the court system.

 

[ppko]

better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

dang it I just saw your saying at the bottom of your post but it is very true

 

[rmcrobertson]

"The essence of the law is that the sweets of private vengeance shall be denied."

Beyond that--and beyond the fact that such action violates the very first principles of martial arts--I assumed that the post was a joke. At least, I am hoping that there aren't instructors out there teaching kids--disabled or otherwise--who enjoys the idea that the kids are afraid of him, because they've seen him hit a bag.

 

[shesulsa]

I think there is a distinction between vigilantism and self-defense - unfortunately, not all the courts agree with that distinction.

A Vigilante is an unlawful person or group that sets itself up to control and punish crime.

Self-defense is the act of defending one's person or one's actions.

Defense is a posture which implies receipt of committed threat. Vigilantism is a posture which implies threatening.

Sigh - the bad guys have rights too.

 

[Cruentus]

May i direct your attention to this thread

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15528

It is this kind of action/attitude that has earned martial artists treatment like this in the court system.

That was probably one of the stupidest things I have ever read....that has got to be a joke! :rofl:

 

[Cruentus]

I agree that are society is in a quandry regarding self-defense. There are 2 things that need to happened to fix the problem, that I see.

#1. Martial Arts schools start to realize the dilemma we are in, and that the defender could be the one deemed a criminal. So, they get out of the fantasy ideas, and start teaching practical self-defense, but also other things like PRUDENCE and LEGALITIES.

#2. Our lawmakers start to fight for our rights as individuals, and our rights to self defense.

 

[Hanzo04]

you took the words right out of my mouth! it's good that someoneelse made a point of this besides me and Littledragon. my hat goes off to you bammx2

 

[Bammx2]

I must admit,I read the "baseball incident" on another thread....thats what prompted me to post this one.
Admitedly....he was a legend in his own mind

But it got me to thinking...in my travels of the last 20+ yrs...I have seen too many people show thier a$$ and ruin a good time for the general public because a) no one will say a single word to get them to calm themselves and b) the "bad guys" know they can LEGALY abuse our system and get away with it.
And at what point does a "bad guy" stop having legal rights over the "good guys"?
God bless the cops who do try...but they are limited... and the UK...they have thier hands tied in knots! I BET the UK has far more innocent victims in prison than we ever had.
For those of you in the UK reading this....I have 2 words....Tony Martin!
Doesn't anybody think its wrong to work you butt off for the things you have just to let some scumbag walk in and take it just because you're not allowed by "law" to take action? (with in reason of course)
My judo teacher(may he rest in peace) did time for killing 1 of 3 men who attacked him just because witnesses saw him throw the first punch.The courts saw HIM as the agressor just because he was a former marine and was trained in judo.The judge said HE should have known better.nevermind the fact 2 of the 3 were armed.
Please forgive me if I am wrong..I am willing to listen to anything anyone has to say on this and I am willing to do it with an opened mind.
I even admit in small miniscule cases..the bad guys have right too.
There are extenuating(sp?) circumstances..sometimes.
Am I wrong in my thoughts?

 

[shesulsa]

I agree that are society is in a quandry regarding self-defense. There are 2 things that need to happened to fix the problem, that I see.

#1. Martial Arts schools start to realize the dilemma we are in, and that the defender could be the one deemed a criminal. So, they get out of the fantasy ideas, and start teaching practical self-defense, but also other things like PRUDENCE and LEGALITIES.

#2. Our lawmakers start to fight for our rights as individuals, and our rights to self defense.

Oh let's sing that old spiritual, "Aaaa-aa-men......Aaaa-aa-men!"

That was probably one of the stupidest things I have ever read....that has got to be a joke! :rofl:

Yeah. I posted a reply on that thread, but now it's been closed. Essentially, what an idiot. And I must say here that I have great respect for Joe Dimmick and for his system known as Sam Pai Kenpo - kinda irks me that someone would either jokingly use the name to post such a nimrodish joke or that someone who legitimately can claim he studies the style represented Mr. Dimmick in such a boorish fashion. I assume it's a joke, but...well...it's not funny. ****EDIT: THIS IS MY OPINION, SLANTED THOUGH IT MIGHT BE TOWARDS FAVORING JOE DIMMICK AND HIS SYSTEM KNOWN AS SAM PAI KENPO AND I SUPPOSE THE POST REFERENCED COULD INDICATE SATIRIZATION OF MARTIAL ARTS FANTASY. HOWEVER, I STILL DON'T THINK IT'S FUNNY. THAT'S MY OPINION AND I'M RESPECTFULLY STICKIN' TO IT.****

Am I wrong in my thoughts?

Heck no.

 

[KenpoTex]

I definately agree that the feelings and actions towards those who act in self defense in today's society are in serious need of overhaul. When I hear about cases like the one in Willamette, Illinois a couple of years ago where the homeowner was charged (and convicted) of manslaughter b/c he shot an armed intruder, it almost makes me sick. We hear a lot of bullsh** about the "rights" of the criminal, what about the rights of the victim? As far as I'm concerned when someone tries to violate your rights he has just relinquished his own. Extreme? maybe, but what we're doing today isn't working.

One of the things that infuriates me to no end is the pacifistic attitude that pervades ours society. People are told "don't resist, your wallet/car isn't worth your life." Maybe the money in my wallet (and there's little enough of that) isn't worth a life-mine or the perpetrator's; but as far as I'm concerned the principle of the matter is far more important than any amount of money. When someone tries to rob; or for that matter, rape, assault, or even murder you the issue is that he/she is, in effect, saying that "my desires supercede your right to property/dignity/life/safety, etc." Unfortunately, by making laws such as "duty to retreat," or laws that do not authorize deadly force to protect property, the system is making the above statement a reality. Furthermore, I find these types of laws insulting because the underlying implication is that the rights of the assailant are of higher value than the rights of the victim. Violence has become so stigmatized in our society that using force even to prevent injury or loss of life is liable to result in prosecution and definately in persecution.

Okay, time to shut up...I could go on forever.

 

[OC Kid]

Well I whole hearted agree with the right to self defend your self loved ones freinds and family and country. Living in the land of litigation SoCal, I know full well about lawsuits frivolous and otherwise.

Anymore I just call the police and let them handle it. Thats what they get paid for. In the case of the guy at the B/B game let security handle it.

The times have changed. It is no more pull over and Ill stomp a mud hole in you. It pull over and Ill pop a cap on your butt. All the training in the world can not prepare someone to stop a bullet. The weakest most feeble person in the world can pull a trigger and so can the biggest jerk/criminal can also.

But we as martial artist must remember there is a difference between self defense and self offense. We cant be stomping mud wholes in every jerk we come accross. Plus we can only do what it takes to defend. Not to just take someone out. There is a difference also. We should do only enough to defend until we can call the police and have the bad guy hauled away.
Believe me when I say it that I am stressed out right now. We all know what stress is right? For those that dont it can be defined as:

"The mind over riding the bodies urge to beat the living crap out of some some jerk that desperately deserves it."

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Well I whole hearted agree with the right to self defend your self loved ones freinds and family and country. Living in the land of litigation SoCal, I know full well about lawsuits frivolous and otherwise.

Anymore I just call the police and let them handle it. Thats what they get paid for. In the case of the guy at the B/B game let security handle it.

The times have changed. It is no more pull over and Ill stomp a mud hole in you. It pull over and Ill pop a cap on your butt. All the training in the world can not prepare someone to stop a bullet. The weakest most feeble person in the world can pull a trigger and so can the biggest jerk/criminal can also.

But we as martial artist must remember there is a difference between self defense and self offense. We cant be stomping mud wholes in every jerk we come accross. Plus we can only do what it takes to defend. Not to just take someone out. There is a difference also. We should do only enough to defend until we can call the police and have the bad guy hauled away.
Believe me when I say it that I am stressed out right now. We all know what stress is right? For those that dont it can be defined as:

"The mind over riding the bodies urge to beat the living crap out of some some jerk that desperately deserves it."

I've been watching this thread to see where it goes. And I both agree and disagree. This happened in August:

Tragedy hit the Muay Thai community yesterday as kickboxing champion Alex Gong was shot to death while engaged in a traffic argument.

Gong, who is also the CEO of Fairtex USA, was training at the Fairtex gym in San Francisco around 4:30 P.M., when he saw his parked Jeep Cherokee get hit by another Jeep Cherokee that was driving by. The driver took off and Gong ran after him, eventually catching up to the driver at a stop light.

An argument ensued and as the traffic light turned green, the driver took out a gun and shot Gong at point blank range, wounding him just above the heart. Fairtex instructor Brian Lam and a motorcycle officer arrived to help resuscitate Gong, but it was not enough to save him and he passed away not long after being shot.

:waah:

This is such a sad story, but unfortunately very real. Apparently, the driver was fleeing a robbery, or something to that effect. I'm torn, personally, regarding how to react. Even young kids have guns nowadays. When I was working at the bar we had a bunch of guys, maybe 15, from San Francisco come in who were promoting a new rap album. A fight broke out and we had to cuff a couple of them up; and believe me, we took them down hard. It's a long story, but we agreed to let them go if they'd just leave, and they did. However, all the bouncers went inside--I was working the door--and they came back around a few minutes later in their SUV, windows up, tinted, and I see the back window roll down. It was just so the guy could extend a finger and tell me what a wonderful person I was. But, for a split second, I thought he was going to start shooting, and I've never felt anything like that before. I've seen some harry *****; I've gone up against guys with knives, pool cues, crowbars, tire chains/irons; hell I even went head-on with a bronco on my sportbike, but noting came close to the feeling of, what I can only describe as. . .helplessness.

 

[Phoenix44]

Correct. The weapon of choice of a road-rager is a handgun.

 

[Mark Weiser]

You hit the nail on the head there sir. The act of instilling the power of helplessness is the weapon of choice of any Terrorist either Domestic or International.

That is the new area of Focus we as Martial Arts Instructors must and should start training the next generation of Blackbelts on how to deal with this new weapon.

Arming yourself to the teeth is not the answer but awareness of the enviroment and the idea that you can only do so much and accept our fragile existence on this planet and do what we can to protect ourselves and others. Even the most seasoned veteran can and does feel powerless at times it is a natural reaction.

I as well have been in situations where you just stand there and say well this is it and you have nowhere to go and the you know what is coming.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser