Video of aikido techniques against full resistance

[O'Malley]

That changes the entire mechanic behind it. Remember that clip is from an aiki art, which uses specific body mechanics. Keeping a leg in front eliminates all of those mechanics and changes the form of control on uke.

Depends on what one calls aiki, I guess. It's fine in my book

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends on what one calls aiki, I guess. It's fine in my book

Good point. The mechanics I've learned to refer to as "aiki" include the body techniques we learned as "ki techniques" (I think they mostly come from Daito-ryu, though possibly were altered). The position in that video doesn't allow the use of weight dropping or most of what I learned to call conjunctive locking to lead uke off balance. It's a solid technique, but doesn't fit with what I learned as aiki body mechanics.

 

[O'Malley]

Good point. The mechanics I've learned to refer to as "aiki" include the body techniques we learned as "ki techniques" (I think they mostly come from Daito-ryu, though possibly were altered). The position in that video doesn't allow the use of weight dropping or most of what I learned to call conjunctive locking to lead uke off balance. It's a solid technique, but doesn't fit with what I learned as aiki body mechanics.

You could perhaps try dropping weight on the left arm then aiki age on that same arm to drive him upwards? Dunno if that makes sense.

 

[wab25]

There are different techniques so that you can do things differently. The techniques are supposed to be different. One is using aiki the other is using a foot prop. They both use and develop different skills.

So which is better? Well, if you want to improve your foot skill... that one is better. If you want to improve your aiki, the first one is better. Which is better depends very much on what your viewpoint is and what your goals are.

To often, we focus only on the result in our training. If that gets him down, this will get him down better. Often times in training, we work on things to develop skills.... having more skills gives us more options.

No really, which one is the best, in a pure hand to hand combat situation? The one that got the other guy down.... And that depends on all kinds of things, including how the other guy attacks, defends and responds..... Having more skills, should give us more options in more situations. To that end, I think it is a mistake to muddy up one skill, with another skill, just to show that they "can kind of be the same."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In theory, if you allow your opponent to have free legs, your opponent can move in wider range and has better chance to escape out of your attack. If you can control one of his legs (or both of his legs), you can reduce his mobility. that will be toward your advantage.

Aikido guy tries to control his opponent's wrist joint than elbow joint. This also give his opponent's arms more freedom to move. IMO, elbow joint control, or shoulder joint control is superior than wrist joint control.

 

[Flying Crane]

In theory, if you allow your opponent to have free legs, your opponent can move in wider range and has better chance to escape out of your attack. If you can control one of his legs (or both of his legs), you can reduce his mobility. that will be toward your advantage.

Aikido guy tries to control his opponent's wrist joint than elbow joint. This also give his opponent's arms more freedom to move. IMO, elbow joint control, or shoulder joint control is superior than wrist joint control.

A competent aikido-ka understands all kinds of joint control, including, but not limited to, wrist, elbow, and shoulder. You didn’t know this about aikido?

 

[O'Malley]

In theory, if you allow your opponent to have free legs, your opponent can move in wider range and has better chance to escape out of your attack. If you can control one of his legs (or both of his legs), you can reduce his mobility. that will be toward your advantage.

Aikido guy tries to control his opponent's wrist joint than elbow joint. This also give his opponent's arms more freedom to move. IMO, elbow joint control, or shoulder joint control is superior than wrist joint control.

It's not supposed to be about wrist control. In aikido, one uses the contact point to apply pressure, through the arm, to areas like the back of the neck. One of the reasons why we train with weapons to learn how to apply weight/force through something (a stick, an arm, etc.).

 

[wab25]

In theory, if you allow your opponent to have free legs, your opponent can move in wider range and has better chance to escape out of your attack. If you can control one of his legs (or both of his legs), you can reduce his mobility. that will be toward your advantage.

Agree 100%. However, you can control your opponents legs with things other than your legs. If I break my opponents structure and off-balance him, to his left side and back... I am controlling his legs. His left leg is stuck, holding him up... he cannot move it or lift it, because he will fall. The right leg is controlled as well, it movement is limited as its its power.

Aikido guy tries to control his opponent's wrist joint than elbow joint. This also give his opponent's arms more freedom to move. IMO, elbow joint control, or shoulder joint control is superior than wrist joint control.

The only reason the Aikido guy control's the opponent's wrist is because that is the contact point given him. Just like any other art that does wrist locks.... the wrist lock is not really the point. The wrist gives you the elbow, which gives you the shoulder, which gives you the spine, which gives you control over their structure and balance... it gives you their center. Especially with Aikido, there might not be much pressure at all on the wrist... but they have your structure and balance.... meaning they have control also of your legs, your other arm,.... in fact your whole body.

Yes, you do have to control your opponents legs, arms, elbows, head, knees, ..... but there are many ways to do this. Breaking of structure and off balancing the person does this.... and there are many, many ways to do this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You could perhaps try dropping weight on the left arm then aiki age on that same arm to drive him upwards? Dunno if that makes sense.

We never used terms like aiki age (most of our terminology was translated when the art came to the US). I think I get what you’re saying, and you make a good point. It’s not how I learned to use those mechanics, but I believe there’s a real difference in the approach I learned and the more traditional (and probably more deeply rooted) approach of other aiki arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe there’s a real difference in the approach I learned and the more traditional (and probably more deeply rooted) approach of other aiki arts.

What if an Aikido guy also cross trains Judo and wrestling? Will he try to apply Aiki into his Judo/wrestling, or will he try to apply Judo/wrestling into his Aikido?

If a TKD guy also train MT, will he

- train 2 different kind of roundhouse kicks, or
- try to integrate both, or
- pick up one from the other?

 

[drop bear]

What if an Aikido guy also cross trains Judo and wrestling? Will he try to apply Aiki into his Judo/wrestling, or will he try to apply Judo/wrestling into his Aikido?

If a TKD guy also train MT, will he

- train 2 different kind of roundhouse kicks, or
- try to integrate both, or
- pick up one from the other?

An issue I have with Aikido is that i don't think the training develops this Aiki sense in any meaningful way.

In the same way any timing and sensitivity is just hard to drill compliantly. And needs to be done via games.

Which is where BJJ is sort of heading.

So if he cross trains. At least he will get used to the idea of a moving partner that does stuff. And will get that element of timing and sensitivity.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So if he cross trains. At least he will get used to the idea of a moving partner that does stuff. And will get that element of timing and sensitivity.

Any training that doesn't include fist flying is not realistic. So, how to

- protect your head not to be punched, and
- punch your opponent's head,

can be more important training than anything else.

 

[Stuarto]

Any training that doesn't include fist flying is not realistic. So, how to

- protect your head not to be punched, and
- punch your opponent's head,

can be more important training than anything else.

It's always better when you have uke and tori. The air fighting is helpful with muscle memory but it doesn't really hit home until a dude is throwing a punch at you.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Any training that doesn't include fist flying is not realistic. So, how to

- protect your head not to be punched, and
- punch your opponent's head,

can be more important training than anything else.

Surviving to be able to land a fight ending technique is of course the goal. To accomplish this IS the reason for all the time spent in drilling and sparring, and even kata - the whole purpose of it, at least from an MA point of view. Every practice step, punch, parry, kick, grapple, and every lesson on mental/spiritual attitude and tactics should be seen as steps to that final destination. Understanding this and keeping it in mind during training cannot but help make that practice more efficient.

"If you strike, then you strike to kill the enemy. This is the spirit you need in training." Chibana Chosin (1885-1969), aka "Last Warrior of Shuri."

 

[windwalker099]

Some thoughts.

An issue I have with Aikido is that i don't think the training develops this Aiki sense in any meaningful way.

Aiki, like Qi (氣) development in Taiji, takes time to cultivate.

I’m hesitant to mention a personal matter, but with regards to Aiki I have repeated a long process of trial and error. When I was fortunate enough to get it right and destabilize someone I would think “Ah – is this Aiki?” and feel good, but when I tried it on Sensei he would yell “No, no, that’s just strength! Aiki is like this!

Even those under known practitioners had a hard time, expressing it.

Any training that doesn't include fist flying is not realistic. So, how to

- protect your head not to be punched, and
- punch your opponent's head,

can be more important training than anything else.

expressed a little differently

clear power : Meeting with Takeda Soukaku

There are many dojos where the teacher wouldn’t be able to perform his technique if someone really resisted him, which is why they avoid <these kind of confrontations>. Many of the popular modern day budo espouse love and zen
thinking that this is a good thing. You could also look at it as an excuse <for their shortcomings>.

But then again in an actual bout you need to use that strength that comes out when you desperately want to survive, say in a fire or other situation. If you simply practice techniques such as wrist locks that have no meaning in the real world it’s no good.

You have to be able to do and use anything at your disposable, wrist locks and everything else included. When I fight for real, I wouldn’t use something so inefficient as a wrist lock. I simply touch them and they fall over. Then all I need do is stomp them. If I step on my opponents’ foot he wouldn’t be able to move at all.

Many students that come here think that the Aikido or other art that they practiced will serve them in some way when they come here, but it doesn’t help them at all. If anything it places them in a situation that is worse than if they
knew nothing at all. We do things naturally. All other places try and create artificial shapes, putting in artificial strength into their <techniques>.

People that do Karate have a hard time kicking the habit of tensing. They have the ingrained
habit of tensing their wrist and elbows.

Some people cross-train to test what they've developed allowing them to engage with others getioa clearer sense of their level.

Useful and needed for deepening their understanding

If the goal is to add something some might feel is missing or lacking maybe not.


Not about collecting more.
Do more with less.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not about collecting more.
Do more with less.

MA is to find the right key to open the right lock. There exists no master key that can open all locks.

Taiji people think "yield" can solve all problems. What if your opponent helps you to "yield" more than you want to?

Both yielding and resisting cannot solve all problems. So, what's the best solution? The best solution is to take the control back. The question is how?

 

[Flying Crane]

Taiji people think "yield" can solve all problems. What if your opponent helps you to "yield" more than you want to?

I bet they don’t.

 

[windwalker099]

What if your opponent helps you to "yield" more than you want to?

It means you’re still not empty enough.

Those are the ones with real skill the ones who can move you.
The others are easier to handle.
They give you everything you need to do so.


it isn’t about collecting more.
It’s about doing more with less.
Not adding force, but removing resistance.
Not chasing power, but refining presence.

Emptiness isn’t absence.
It’s depth.