Vee Arnis Gun/Ground Clips

[MJS]

I'm involved in a discussion on another forum, regarding these clips. I thought I'd post them here and get some feedback from the Martial Talk members!

These are 2 clips featuring David James, the current head of the Vee Arnis system. The first clip talks about gun defense and the second, which is much shorter, talks about the ground.

Now, as I've said a few other times, I personally, am not fond of judging an art simply by a youtube clip. Seems kinda hard to me to get the full feel of something off of video. What I'm specifically looking to discuss, is your views on what you're seeing, what he says and what, if anything, you do differently. So...with all that being said....I present you with the two clips. Let the discussion begin!


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[Guardian]

The best gun defense is to cooperate, though I like what he was teaching, in my reality and my years of experience deal with crooks and such, the best defense cooperation, give it up, 99.9% of the time they will leave or be pre-occupied and you need to train yourself to split right away. Plus I've haven't heard of anyone putting a gun to the head of a victum in sometime. Their usually a few feet away and I don't care how good you are, MA vs. Gun, MA loses.

Now on the other hand, if there is no choice and you definately feel the individual is going to shoot you anyways, then the action you take is already pre-determined for you. It's always a gamble on these types of scenarios.

The ground video is ok, I've always been taught and advocated close the distance and tie them up and work close in, on your average (non MA) individual, working from up close is to your benefit, so that parts ok.

Just my small view on it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Interesting video clips MJS! Personally I have looked at alot of David James video clips through the years and he has alot to offer. The Vee Arnis Jitsu system from what I have observed is a pretty workable system based on my observations. Is there stuff that I have seen that I did not like, sure. However most of the material seems pretty sound based on video only.

Now as to the clips:

Personally I would never want to defend empty hand vs. a gun. If you feel that you can give them your wallet or car or any personal property and walk away then that would be the goal. Only act if you absolutely feel that you must. (ie. they are going to kill you anyway)

I like in the gun clip that he mentioned getting off line as that is paramount. (use angles to your advantage) Then he was controlling the barrel which is another ultimately important principle. Then he had actions happening afterwards to inflict pain and disorient the gun weilder. The one thing that I always try to do when practicing gun defense is to tell my practitioiners to not be loud but be submissive, act scared and responsive to the individuals demands until you feel that you have to act. (then you can be loud if needed maybe just to mentally shock the other person) The last thing I want to do is be loud before I act as that in itself may cause the guy to shoot you. (heck if I pulled a gun on someone and they were loud I would probably shoot them to out of reflex)

As to the grappling I have had one on one incidents and thank god two, three, four and more incidents vs. one person that ended up on the ground. (thank god the numbers were on my side as it was work related)
I think though that we must always remember there are no absolutes in what we do and everything is variable. (chaos and strife) Meaning someones friends could be involved or not. (we could be located somewhere where there simply is only us) So in the end since the variables can be different we must train with the mindset of adaptability and have the ability to move from one situation to the next with fluidity and with abandonment of a situation. (as they can change on a dime)

Just a couple of random muttering's on my part!

Great thread BTW!

 

[KenpoTex]

Didn't really see anything in the gun-disarm clip that I had a problem with. His technique includes the necessary steps and is in fact pretty similar to what I teach for a high-line presentation. When I teach gun-disarms, I use the following progression: 1. move the weapon off-line 2. control the weapon 3. attack (knees, stomps and headbutts are my favorite in this situation) 4. disarm (sometimes 3 and 4 are reversed or simultaneous depending on the exact situation and how it plays out).

On the grappling clip. It sounds as if he's advocating staying on your feet rather than rolling around on the ground. If that's the case, I entirely agree. I've trained in some BJJ but I definately wouldn't want to end up in a groundfighting situation in "real life."

 

[jks9199]

In a quick view of the gun disarm...

I like that he discusses getting off the line of fire, and that he addresses the unreality of the fully extended arm. I don't like any gun disarm that gets into relying on the mechanics of how the gun works (jamming the barrel from turning in a revolver, jamming the slide on a semi-auto, blocking an exposed hammer, etc.); there are too many variables in how guns work, and it's too much to remember under incredible stress. I liked that he talked about timing of when to act, as well. And I agree with his comments about being unable to control whether someone shoots a bystander while defending yourself; it's reality. It's sad. But it's real. And the first person you've got a responsibility to protect is YOU.

One comment on the rotation for the disarm... If you're practicing this, I strongly encourage you to make a red gun/safe gun WITHOUT a trigger guard. Unless you're training partners like having broken fingers, that is...

But, I also agree with Brian, unarmed against a gun is always a last choice...

 

[still learning]

Hello, Good stuffs to remember..thank-you for sharing this video clip!

Good idea to push the gun to the left of you and trap/break there finger.

Yes...no one should stay on the ground to grappler in a real street situtions. Good points on this video clip.

Aloha,