Using videos to supplement what you learn in class?

[Dirty Dog]

Oh, I did it right - drove that car many thousands of miles on that brake job. I am quite able to do such things. It took me almost 2 days, though. If you watched me, about an hour in, you’d take away my tools.

I doubt it. More likely I'd help you learn better techniques. Or at least faster ones. A brake job (all four rotors and pads) shouldn't take more than a couple hours. Less, if you have fancy stuff like air tools and a lift.
YouTube videos can supplement your knowledge here, too.

 

[pdg]

I doubt it. More likely I'd help you learn better techniques. Or at least faster ones. A brake job (all four rotors and pads) shouldn't take more than a couple hours. Less, if you have fancy stuff like air tools and a lift.
YouTube videos can supplement your knowledge here, too.

In much the same way as patterns/forms/kata, youtube videos for this sort of job can be useful, or extremely misleading...

If you have no base of knowledge, watching a random video on replacing brake pads may not help at all and/or miss important bits - at the generic level it's basically the same job, but specifics can trip the unwary and unknowing (like do you need to rotate the pistons while pushing them back into the calipers, or do you need a press tool, or can you simply shove them in with a lever or a pair of waterpump pliers...)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I doubt it. More likely I'd help you learn better techniques. Or at least faster ones. A brake job (all four rotors and pads) shouldn't take more than a couple hours. Less, if you have fancy stuff like air tools and a lift.
YouTube videos can supplement your knowledge here, too.

My problem is mostly an unorganized approach. I think it’s took me 4 trips for parts, and two separate orders. My brain...SQUIRREL!

 

[Dirty Dog]

In much the same way as patterns/forms/kata, youtube videos for this sort of job can be useful, or extremely misleading...

If you have no base of knowledge, watching a random video on replacing brake pads may not help at all and/or miss important bits - at the generic level it's basically the same job, but specifics can trip the unwary and unknowing (like do you need to rotate the pistons while pushing them back into the calipers, or do you need a press tool, or can you simply shove them in with a lever or a pair of waterpump pliers...)

Sure, but he's already got some basic knowledge. And there's far less variation between modern mechanical parts and humans. And far less subtle movement turning a wrench.
I've never needed anything more complicated than a C clamp to compress the pistons. And in a pinch (see what I did there?) I've done it with a really big screwdriver.

My problem is mostly an unorganized approach. I think it’s took me 4 trips for parts, and two separate orders. My brain...SQUIRREL!

In that case, I'd stand behind you and wack you with a spanner whenever you got distracted.

I have a stick at the dojang I occasionally hint I might use to beat students for things like weak stances. If it works for them...
(Note for those who are about to call CPS: I'm joking. The stick is real (and padded), but the threat is just a joke, and everybody knows it.)

 

[JR 137]

For you, sure. For me, not so much.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would pay someone else to change their oil or do a brake job.

They may lack the proper tools and/or knowledge. My father’s a mechanic, so I bring my car to his shop and do it myself. I wouldn’t jack up my car and lay under it to change the oil and filter on my street (on-street parking). And I don’t have jack stands to bring it to a level parking lot.

And I wouldn’t change brake pads without knowing exactly what I was doing and on a jack intended to change a flat tire.

I’ve done that stuff and a lot of other stuff a million times. Pretty simple if someone taught you and you’ve got the right tools and safety stuff. Mess up the brake job, and the car might not stop when you expect it to. Don’t have a good jack stand and/or put it in the wrong place, and the car can fall. Hopefully not on top of you.

There’s definitely no shortage of people who are completely clueless though. When I was living a few hours away from my father, I had my oil changed by a local independent mechanic. He did inspections for free with oil changes, so I let him do it. Failed for a license plate light bulb. He wanted $30 to change it. I asked how could the bulb possibly cost $30, to which he replied it was mainly the labor. Sure. I bought a 2 pack of the bulbs for $3.99. I’m sure he’s gotten quite a few people with that.

Edit: I guess you can siphon the oil out. Never did that personally. Some cars have an oil filter reachable from above; not mine.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would certainly never trust myself to do a good brake job with YouTube as my teacher.

 

[pdg]

Sure, but he's already got some basic knowledge. And there's far less variation between modern mechanical parts and humans. And far less subtle movement turning a wrench.
I've never needed anything more complicated than a C clamp to compress the pistons. And in a pinch (see what I did there?) I've done it with a really big screwdriver.

Well, yes and no.

It depends on the depth of your knowledge base and your ability to discern what is or isn't any good. Also the way you interpret the video and what you want to get out of it.

The lower your range of knowledge (and the more you 'need' the video), the greater the 'danger' of being led astray.

For patterns, a person has just recently started TKD and they want a head start, so they hit google to find the first pattern they need, look on youtube and follow a video to learn the moves and exactly copy the positions. The video looks reminiscent of what they've seen others in class do, great.

They've just learned taegeuk il jang - they needed chon-ji...


Another person knows the pattern they want, they search for dan-gun. They're in a better position than the last person but they still copy all the moves - they've just learned how to do with purely lateral movement but their school is a proponent of using sine wave.

Both those hypothetical people have a basic knowledge (of differing levels) and they both run into problems.

The way I use videos is the same as I use the written instructions - to learn the sequence of techniques. I can use a video from any sub-system (of the correct pattern) to do that, I can also identify which ones are of use to me, and which ones I can use to refine a movement.


In the same way, a person who finds a video walkthrough to replace their brake shoes - a video for doing that on a 2016 ford focus is extremely unlikely to be any help whatsoever with their 2015 peugeot 308...

I can think of at least 5 methods of brake pad retention in common use, and a step by step guide for one type may not help at all for another.

Brake discs too, to change a disc on one car may simply be a case of taking off the wheel, unbolting and swinging aside the caliper, taking out a small screw and swapping the disc - on something like a LR discovery, you have to strip out the wheel bearings to remove the entire hub because the disc is bolted to the back.

While that wouldn't bother me in the slightest, I don't need a video to figure it out - but someone who does need a video may not be able to discern what is relevant.



Edit: oh, and while I've also used a big screwdriver as a lever to shove a piston back into a caliper, I've also had some where no amount of shoving or clamping would shift it because it's part of the handbrake self adjust system and needs turning under pressure to retract it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In that case, I'd stand behind you and wack you with a spanner whenever you got distracted.

Now that might be a useful contribution, DD! Mind you, after about the 8th whack, I think my skill level might start to drop.

 

[Mark Lynn]

This struck me as a no brainer. Since returning to MA, I have done this to supplement time in class, especially, but not exclusively for forms.

This topic came up last night in class when a guy, who is a new green belt struggled to learn his latest form. Not unusual, but I told this kid what I did. I told him every one of these forms is online, mostly on youtube. In between classes, spend a few minutes a day watching one of these videos, and go over the pattern in your mind a few times. Guaranteed in a few classes, he would have the new movements down.

An assistant instructor came over and told this kid not to listen to me, that the only instruction he should listen to is from the master, or one of the assistant instructors at the school, and to never try to learn from a video on the internet..

On using videos to learn a form, I don't think that is the best idea, although sometimes it is the only way to learn the form. For example let's say I want to go back and relearn a form I did some 30 years ago in a different style of karate. I have a video of me demonstrating the kata during that time frame when I learned it, and I no longer have a connection to the school that I learned the kata from. So if I choose to watch the video, read my notes, and relearn the kata that way what is the harm? So maybe I don't do it exactly the same way I use to do it, obviously I'm older now so there could be moves that I would struggle with, but for the most part I can do the kata. In this sense watching and using old video has helped me to retain an old form that no one around me practices and it has given me something to challenge myself with.

In regards to listening to the assistant instructors and to the master instructor I totally agree on face value. However, what happens when the head instructor or the assistant instructor is teaching the form wrong, or doesn't have a good understanding of basics. It could be that the head instructor doesn't care about the kata and looks that kata is only needed to pass onto the next rank. Maybe the school is focused on tournaments and have changed the kata so that it looks good for a tournament but has altered the kata. Perhaps watching you tube videos you might actually see how to do the form correctly in the first place.

I think some you tube videos are a decent source for reference material.

I understand the role of the master and his teachers as gatekeepers, but I am wondering if that time has passed. We all have access to materials on the internet and so long as you don't learn something incorrect, why shouldn't you use what is available to you to facilitate the learning process?

I already laid out my position, but curious what the consensus is here among more advanced practitioners and martial arts teachers.

That's the kicker what is incorrect? What is incorrect to you, or the head instructor, or the assistants could actually be correct in a different context. I was at a LaMeCo escrima seminar two weekends ago and we were practicing knife defense from a stalemate position each person had hold of the other's knife hand. The instructor showed us how to trap the knife hand arm and body shock the elbow from this position and it worked fine. The next day I realized as I was writing down my notes for the seminar that this same move was shown to one of my assistants as a defense against the knife thrust at a totally different seminar or class a few weeks earlier (it was a karate seminar on knife defense I wasn't there so I don't know). However we (my other assistants and I) tore up that defense when we tested it in our FMA class in the aikijujitsu type defense fashion as it was taught to my assistant who was showing us.

In regards to kata it can be the same thing. Iain Abernethy tells the story of a karate dojo that had a large post in the middle of it. So when they did a certain kata they would run into the post, so they adjust the kata and added a side step (or something) to move them away from the post. Years go by and it becomes institutionalized in the school, when they mixed with other schools who learned the kata the other way without the bonus footwork. Other schools then began to question if the one sensei hadn't be taught something that their sensei didn't. Like some super secret foot work and bunkai that supported the sideways step (or whatever move was added). When all it was was getting around a support beam with out stopping the kata.

The kata I referred before that I was relearning had a jump and turn with a kick in it. When I recorded it I had a sprained ankle so I didn't do the jump and turn, I just walked through it. After almost 30 years I finally found the kata on the internet (youtube), and there is no jump recorded there either in the two versions I found on line. So did the instructors who taught it to me learn it wrong? Did they add something? Or did their instructors add or delete something? Did the instructors who are video'd on you tube learn it wrong? Did they add or delete techniques? Who can tell? In the big scheme of things does it matter?

 

[Mark Lynn]

I understand the role of the master and his teachers as gatekeepers, but I am wondering if that time has passed. We all have access to materials on the internet and so long as you don't learn something incorrect, why shouldn't you use what is available to you to facilitate the learning process?

I already laid out my position, but curious what the consensus is here among more advanced practitioners and martial arts teachers.

mrt2
I wanted to address the gatekeepers question?

First off good question, because I believe in using videos for reference I've asked myself the same question.

As far as a gatekeeper (of knowledge) it implies that I withhold knowledge from my students. To this I probably give my students way to much info. I explain things in much greater detail than I was taught, I try and show my students how things connect together so I give them a much wider view point than many instructors have. I don't hold back. Probably the same reason why I write long posts trying to explain my view point. It's not that I try and give them to advanced techniques, I mean I try and relate concepts and such. For instance I was helping teach a class this morning and the instructor (I'm a guest instructor in this example) asked me to cover some disarms. So they were American Karate students and I was teaching FMAs. So I taught them a few disarms but I related the movements and the concepts for disarming back to the karate kata they knew. Now I told them that the principle of two ways action is found in the kata like this motion, that motion etc. etc. and demonstrated how to make the disarm work with double stick, single stick (stick held in both left and right hands) and empty hand. I had them only work on the single stick and then translate the movements to empty hand but I showed them how it related to a lot more.

So my question is to everyone out there who says you can't learn from a video, if they understood how to apply the principles found in the disarm. I don't see why they couldn't have seen it demonstrated on their computer screen and made the same connection. Maybe they only had practiced in class the single stick version, so why couldn't people look at it and say hey that's how to do it with a double stick application, or stick and knife, or tonfa, sai, or kama? A beginner maybe not, but a student who is taught (or trained) to see things that way (speaking from my experience with my students), I don't see why not. I tell people all of the time to use my video channel as a reference.

If they can make those type of connections between different weapons or different disarms defenses etc. etc. etc. why can't someone learn the basics of a kata? To fine tune the disarms and the unarmed defense they need the instructor, to help guide them further they still need an instructor. But to learn the basics, the large motions of a disarm or a kata they can get information from you tube.

 

[mrt2]

mrt2
I wanted to address the gatekeepers question?


If they can make those type of connections between different weapons or different disarms defenses etc. etc. etc. why can't someone learn the basics of a kata? To fine tune the disarms and the unarmed defense they need the instructor, to help guide them further they still need an instructor. But to learn the basics, the large motions of a disarm or a kata they can get information from you tube.

Exactly. I usually get to class about 20 minutes early, and thus get to watch the end of the youth class while I am warming up and going through my basics before class. And I see a lot of intermediate colored belts struggling to remember the basics of forms, or kata. And I think for a lot of these youngsters, watching a school approved video of the form would actually help, allowing the instructors to work on fine tuning the form, rather than constantly re teaching the basic movements.

I know what some folks say, but as far as I can tell, my school does ITF forms, and I have had no trouble finding them on youtube. And I have used this approach for my last two forms, studying the forms and coming into class with a basic knowledge of the form. So the instructor is free to help me with things like flow, pace, or other minor corrections. Now, I imagine when I get to the point where the forms demonstrate some completely new technique I have never seen before, it might be a different story than now, when, literally, every move in these beginner to intermediate forms is something I either know, or learned in the past in a different context.

As far as my use of the term gatekeeper, I do think this is an appropriate use of the term as in TKD, they really don't want you to get too far ahead as far as forms, sparring combos, basics, one steps, or other techniques. I get that they aren't trying to hold us back, but merely trying to assure we master the lower belt techniques before moving on to more advanced ones.

I do think, though, that the internet does chip away at the gatekeeper function, at least for MA students who are curious. For example, in my former style of Tang Soo Do, I had no idea how similar it was to Japanese Shotokan until I watched sequentially some youtubes of the forms, and they are essentially identical. In 3 years of practicing Tang Soo Do, no instructor ever told us that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On using videos to learn a form, I don't think that is the best idea, although sometimes it is the only way to learn the form. For example let's say I want to go back and relearn a form I did some 30 years ago in a different style of karate. I have a video of me demonstrating the kata during that time frame when I learned it, and I no longer have a connection to the school that I learned the kata from. So if I choose to watch the video, read my notes, and relearn the kata that way what is the harm? So maybe I don't do it exactly the same way I use to do it, obviously I'm older now so there could be moves that I would struggle with, but for the most part I can do the kata. In this sense watching and using old video has helped me to retain an old form that no one around me practices and it has given me something to challenge myself with.

In regards to listening to the assistant instructors and to the master instructor I totally agree on face value. However, what happens when the head instructor or the assistant instructor is teaching the form wrong, or doesn't have a good understanding of basics. It could be that the head instructor doesn't care about the kata and looks that kata is only needed to pass onto the next rank. Maybe the school is focused on tournaments and have changed the kata so that it looks good for a tournament but has altered the kata. Perhaps watching you tube videos you might actually see how to do the form correctly in the first place.

I think some you tube videos are a decent source for reference material.



That's the kicker what is incorrect? What is incorrect to you, or the head instructor, or the assistants could actually be correct in a different context. I was at a LaMeCo escrima seminar two weekends ago and we were practicing knife defense from a stalemate position each person had hold of the other's knife hand. The instructor showed us how to trap the knife hand arm and body shock the elbow from this position and it worked fine. The next day I realized as I was writing down my notes for the seminar that this same move was shown to one of my assistants as a defense against the knife thrust at a totally different seminar or class a few weeks earlier (it was a karate seminar on knife defense I wasn't there so I don't know). However we (my other assistants and I) tore up that defense when we tested it in our FMA class in the aikijujitsu type defense fashion as it was taught to my assistant who was showing us.

In regards to kata it can be the same thing. Iain Abernethy tells the story of a karate dojo that had a large post in the middle of it. So when they did a certain kata they would run into the post, so they adjust the kata and added a side step (or something) to move them away from the post. Years go by and it becomes institutionalized in the school, when they mixed with other schools who learned the kata the other way without the bonus footwork. Other schools then began to question if the one sensei hadn't be taught something that their sensei didn't. Like some super secret foot work and bunkai that supported the sideways step (or whatever move was added). When all it was was getting around a support beam with out stopping the kata.

The kata I referred before that I was relearning had a jump and turn with a kick in it. When I recorded it I had a sprained ankle so I didn't do the jump and turn, I just walked through it. After almost 30 years I finally found the kata on the internet (youtube), and there is no jump recorded there either in the two versions I found on line. So did the instructors who taught it to me learn it wrong? Did they add something? Or did their instructors add or delete something? Did the instructors who are video'd on you tube learn it wrong? Did they add or delete techniques? Who can tell? In the big scheme of things does it matter?

Well said, Mark. The question of what is "incorrect" is part of my personal teaching mantra. If someone does something different than I taught, I want to know why, or I might even explain to them when that would be useful (especially if it's something they brought from previous training), rather than just say it's "wrong".

(I even resisted the urge to "dislike", for old time's sake. )

 

[Gerry Seymour]

mrt2
I wanted to address the gatekeepers question?

First off good question, because I believe in using videos for reference I've asked myself the same question.

As far as a gatekeeper (of knowledge) it implies that I withhold knowledge from my students. To this I probably give my students way to much info. I explain things in much greater detail than I was taught, I try and show my students how things connect together so I give them a much wider view point than many instructors have. I don't hold back. Probably the same reason why I write long posts trying to explain my view point. It's not that I try and give them to advanced techniques, I mean I try and relate concepts and such. For instance I was helping teach a class this morning and the instructor (I'm a guest instructor in this example) asked me to cover some disarms. So they were American Karate students and I was teaching FMAs. So I taught them a few disarms but I related the movements and the concepts for disarming back to the karate kata they knew. Now I told them that the principle of two ways action is found in the kata like this motion, that motion etc. etc. and demonstrated how to make the disarm work with double stick, single stick (stick held in both left and right hands) and empty hand. I had them only work on the single stick and then translate the movements to empty hand but I showed them how it related to a lot more.

So my question is to everyone out there who says you can't learn from a video, if they understood how to apply the principles found in the disarm. I don't see why they couldn't have seen it demonstrated on their computer screen and made the same connection. Maybe they only had practiced in class the single stick version, so why couldn't people look at it and say hey that's how to do it with a double stick application, or stick and knife, or tonfa, sai, or kama? A beginner maybe not, but a student who is taught (or trained) to see things that way (speaking from my experience with my students), I don't see why not. I tell people all of the time to use my video channel as a reference.

If they can make those type of connections between different weapons or different disarms defenses etc. etc. etc. why can't someone learn the basics of a kata? To fine tune the disarms and the unarmed defense they need the instructor, to help guide them further they still need an instructor. But to learn the basics, the large motions of a disarm or a kata they can get information from you tube.

If they understand the principles involved (or, even, can apply to the new learning principles they already understand), there's much to be gained from a video.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

I purchased this off of ebay for $10 dollars since my foundation art is Choy Li Fut and I have studied wing chun as a suplementary art. Pretty much the YouTube promo video gave me a good laugh but I'm excited to see what this video contains in hopes to at least picking up a couple concepts.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I purchased this off of ebay for $10 dollars since my foundation art is Choy Li Fut and I have studied wing chun as a suplementary art. Pretty much the YouTube promo video gave me a good laugh but I'm excited to see what this video contains in hopes to at least picking up a couple concepts.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You know, I always wonder what they were thinking when they chose the pose for their picture. Like in the pic I use as my avatar (originally for a promo flyer), I thought - need both hands, don't want to look like I'm punching....this looks like I'm pushing off something underwater..." ::FLASH::

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

You know, I always wonder what they were thinking when they chose the pose for their picture. Like in the pic I use as my avatar (originally for a promo flyer), I thought - need both hands, don't want to look like I'm punching....this looks like I'm pushing off something underwater..." ::FLASH::

Have you seen the YouTube demo of this video? I probably should have watched the demo before impulse buying the video but I'm sure I'll pick up a few concepts from it so it was worth the 10 dollars.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you seen the YouTube demo of this video? I probably should have watched the demo before impulse buying the video but I'm sure I'll pick up a few concepts from it so it was worth the 10 dollars.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

The intro to that clip was very...um...confidence inspiring.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

The intro to that clip was very...um...confidence inspiring.

William Cheung is good but I'm doubting the video and should have known not to purchase a black belt magazine video.

I couldn't resist the impulse to purchase the video since I've studied both arts with CLF being my main foundation art.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

William Cheung is good but I'm doubting the video and should have known not to purchase a black belt magazine video.

I couldn't resist the impulse to purchase the video since I've studied both arts with CLF being my main foundation art.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I’ve bought both good and bad videos in my time. Learned something even from most of the bad ones.

 

[Buka]

I’ve bought both good and bad videos in my time. Learned something even from most of the bad ones.

Yeah, me too. We used to buy VHS tapes from Panther Press by the dozens. They used to have a buy 10 get a couple free type deal. Used to use them like watching TV. Always found something interesting, even in the bad ones.