Use of "Mr"

[pakua]

I've noticed you Kenponians use the title Mr a lot. Is it the normal title for anyone in Kenpo, or does it denote particular skill, seniority, respect etc?

 

[D_Brady]

I would say more of respect, I always refer to my instructor as Mr.Dye, I have always heard him refer to Ed Parker as Mr.Parker and Dave Hebler as Mr. Hebler even in private conversations.




Dan.

 

[loki09789]

I would say more of respect, I always refer to my instructor as Mr.Dye, I have always heard him refer to Ed Parker as Mr.Parker and Dave Hebler as Mr. Hebler even in private conversations.




Dan.

Seems to simply be the use of a Western/Euro formallity/respect gesture in an almost Victorianish level of formallity (funny how 'nice' people get when they all practice the refinement of deadly force ). Much like Kenpo itself the cultural honorifics are being 'translated' to fit the culture/needs of the students/practitioners.

 

[Michael Billings]

Mr. Parker never went by "Master" Parker, or "Sifu" Parker.

Our uniforms, and the IKKA ones while he was alive, had the last name of Brown Belts and above over the Crest on the left lapel; below Brown the first name was above the Crest. It was a mark of distinction between Instructor/Student generally.

This has changed somewhat as I hear people introduced at seminars and camps by their Kenpo honorific, eg "Professor" or "Master".

I personally am happy with the "Mr."

-Michael

 

[loki09789]

Mr. Parker never went by "Master" Parker, or "Sifu" Parker.

Our uniforms, and the IKKA ones while he was alive, had the last name of Brown Belts and above over the Crest on the left lapel; below Brown the first name was above the Crest. It was a mark of distinction between Instructor/Student generally.

This has changed somewhat as I hear people introduced at seminars and camps by their Kenpo honorific, eg "Professor" or "Master".

I personally am happy with the "Mr."

-Michael

Have to agree Michael. I may have Okinawan heritage in my from my mother, but I am an American living in an American culture. I see nothing wrong with being culturally aware of the roots of the fighting style that I study without having to adopt the cultural practices.

Dwelling on terms like "Master" or "GM" or "Professor" are not something I care to do. I may use such terms when I am discussing a particular person to an artist that does care to show respect for the practice. If, in my American culture, we are all equals in citizenry, "Mr./Mrs./Ms." will suit me just fine - respect should not depend on 'rank' in an American culture (because there aren't suppose to be 'ranks' or casts) but be for all members. Titles like "Professor/Doctor/Officer...." or what ever that are used usually are linked to an educational level or professional status and only matter in those contexts.

In martial arts or out of it, these titles or 'ranks' should not be confused with 'authority' in any way.

 

[TigerWoman]

The use of "Mr." is not unique to Kenpo. We also address everyone as Mr. or Mrs., Ms. in Taekwondo, and I would imagine other arts do too. If talking to another student, I would name the person as Mr. and Mrs. even if before or after class. But privately, with friends, there is more familiar usage. TW

 

[Gin-Gin]

In Mr. Parker's book Infinite Insights into Kenpo: Vol. I he stated that all black belts should be addressed by either "Mr. or Mrs." to show respect for their rank and time in the Art. I think that's where it comes from for most of us (the Kenpo people, anyway)...

Respectfully,
Gin-Gin :asian:

 

[Shodan]

What Gin-Gin said is what I was also taught. I have always called my instructors "Mr" except for outside of class when I call them by their first names- but it took me a long time to do this outside of class and I would only ever do it with their permission. In class, now that I have my black belt, I am called Mrs. I used to just be called by my first name.

:asian: :karate:

 

[GAB]

Seems to simply be the use of a Western/Euro formallity/respect gesture in an almost Victorianish level of formallity (funny how 'nice' people get when they all practice the refinement of deadly force ). Much like Kenpo itself the cultural honorifics are being 'translated' to fit the culture/needs of the students/practitioners.

Hi, in the English sense/since the Victorian times is a pretty good comparison,
look at the blood shed in that time and fashion if you will...Loki right on!

I believe the 'when in Rome do as the Romans do' is a good way to look at it.

I can see the AK/EPAK persons doing that but not in a Okinawan school or a Filipino school...Japanese use a term to show respect, the Koreans, the Chinese, etc.

Look at the small proportion of EPAK in the world of MA. Now look at the numbers on this board...I guess Mr. would be correct.

Regards, Gary %-}

 

[Mark Weiser]

Actually there is growning movement within Kenpo as it incorporates other systems and or styles of going back to the Chinese useage of Sufu and Japanese usegae of Sensei. Matter of fact three of my instructors in different arts use these titles.

 

[GAB]

Actually there is growning movement within Kenpo as it incorporates other systems and or styles of going back to the Chinese useage of Sufu and Japanese usegae of Sensei. Matter of fact three of my instructors in different arts use these titles.

Mark,

I believe that is the proper way... Sir, is another way if one on one...
Reminds me of the movie 'to Sir with Love' I think that was the name, at least that was the name of the song...

I have often wondered why a Martial Art coming out of Hawaii (America)
uses the words of respect (Chinese) and then grade, belts and degrees as english/american way.

I have read why and am acquainted with it but I still, ponder...The Art is Kajukenbo.

I know and accept the reasons, I truly try to understand, 'rather diffucult old boy' but that is the way it came out of Hawaii, in the days of war and strife.

If we did/had not win/won the war we would not have to try to understand it from the Democratic way of life, we would have been told how it was, true or not...Got to love freedom!

Regards, Gary

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Speaking strictly for myself, I tend to refer to adult Kenpo practitioners as "Mr." or "Ms." regardless of rank or seniority (unless they have asked me not to - my instructor, for instance). Sometimes I slip on this rule (especially when online). An exception to this is when I refer to Ed Parker. I always felt that any title appended to his name was unnecessary. His accomplishments speak for themselves, and any added titles or honorifics seem like gilding the lilly. JMHO, of course. :asian:

 

[Seig]

Looking at it from the "Victorian" perspective is intersting. Consider, if you will, that under Victorian etiquette, a male that has not reached majority is referred to as "Master" and a male that has reached majority is Mister. This is in reverse somewhat to the Martial Arts perspective. Where Mister comes first and Master comes later. One issue that occurs is that no two cultures agree on when one becomes a "Master". For example, in the Korean culture, one becomes entitles to the Master Honorific when one becomes a 4th Degree Black Belt; yet, in EPAK the title is not bestowed until 8th Black, "Assosciate Master of the Arts". Where confusion is bred is in an area such as where I live, I am the only EPAK instructor, but there are a lot of Korean schools. When they see me, they refer to me as "Master Seigel", which I am not comfortable with. Of course, at one time, I was uncomfortable with "Mr. Seigel". In these situations, I am polite and simply inform whoever is addressing me that we do not use that title for my rank in my system, therefore "Mr." will do if I outrank them, "Mike" will do if they outrank me.In EPAK, it was in fact Ed Parker who wrote in Infinite Insights under traditions and courtesies that Black Belts would be referred to as Mr., Miss, Ms. or Mrs. as Gin-Gin has already said.

 

[Shodan]

Yeah- I have to add that I was taught Mr. and Mrs. not just in martial arts, but also by my parents out of respect for my elders.....therefore- if you are older than I am and I am not on a first name basis with you....you are automatically Mr. or Mrs. regardless of your rank/martial arts involvement until you tell me otherwise!!

:asian: :karate:

 

[Drac]

Yeah- I have to add that I was taught Mr. and Mrs. not just in martial arts, but also by my parents out of respect for my elders.....therefore- if you are older than I am and I am not on a first name basis with you....you are automatically Mr. or Mrs. regardless of your rank/martial arts involvement until you tell me otherwise!!

:asian: :karate:

I have to agree..When on duty eveyone is either Mam or Sir unless I catch you red handed doing something naughty, then I address you by a by a different title..Since I have no desire to be kicked off of MT you can let your imaginations fill those in...

 

[loki09789]

Yeah- I have to add that I was taught Mr. and Mrs. not just in martial arts, but also by my parents out of respect for my elders.....therefore- if you are older than I am and I am not on a first name basis with you....you are automatically Mr. or Mrs. regardless of your rank/martial arts involvement until you tell me otherwise!!

:asian: :karate:

That ulitmately is at the root of my acceptance/adoption of this 'Mr' stuff. If the martial arts training is suppose to be, in part, about teaching respect/self esteem/....yadah yadah yadah... then the direct application of your practice of 'Mr./Ms./Mrs.' in the training hall to the street is there. I don't know if you could say the same of 'Sifu/Sensei/Guro...' in American culture (maybe subsets or parts of it, but not in general).

I think the use of 'Master/Mister' in the Victorian sense (which was really an attempt to 'modernize' an idealized view of Chivalry and such) is very different in meaning. In that sense, the term 'Master' would mean "Master of your domain/Power/Authority" where the use within martial arts is more "skill/artistic master."

That is across the cultures (Japanese/Korean/Chinese) and not just within the martial arts training.

As outsiders to the cultures, we only use these terms within that one context of 'Japanese Karate' or what ever your style/cultural art base. Because of that limited use we build this idea that these terms only apply to martial arts stuff. No, my Okinawan cousins would call their kindergarten and subject teachers SENSEI as well. It just means 'teacher.' Same with most of the 'Master' translations. Within the culture the same "master" usage would apply to a 'master plumber/carpenter/painter/dancer/singer.....' on the average.

Even when the historical origins of a term can be translated to a 'Master' connotation with 'authority/leader' meaning and is still used, it is a symbollic/metaphorical use NOT a literal 'Leader' use. I don't know too many of us that would answer the call if the Grand Master wanted to rally us around the flag and take on the local school or a rival village (though there are some who romanticize that historical idea and yearn for 'simpler' times....sorry, I like having my own teeth, and not having to beat my child for stepping down the wrong trail because I need to teach him quickly and harshly to stay on the right trail because the wrong trail is booby trapped - that type of stuff leads to that whole abusive up bringing thing).

 

[Karazenpo]

In the old Hawaiian kenpo days, 'Chief' for Chief Instructor was the title of the time for the head instructor of a ryu. It is still used somewhat today in New England but not that much anymore. Chow dropped it for 'Professor' due to his respect and admiration for Professor Henry S. Okazaki. Personally, I don't use titles and have been admonished by some of my instructors over the years for not doing so, lol. So, I reached a compromise. I do sign all certificates with my title to show respect for who bestowed such title on me. I use it in all news releases and bios. I use it most of the time in postings but not always. I don't use it in private e-mails or everyday life including the dojo. I go by 'Joe'. If someone uses it in the dojo, fine, if they use 'Sir', fine, but if they ask me I say 'Joe' is fine also. During testing I use sir and ma'm for male and female instructors, if someone uses Mr. or a title, that's fine also. When I go to someone elses school or event I respectfully follow their protocol.