USAT announces historic Kukkiwon special dan testing

[Daniel Sullivan]

Like others here, I can also see the potential for shenannigans.

On the other hand, I do know of people who paid their testing fees and were given bogus certs by a school that just kept the money. One such individual came to our school and GM Kim too the time and trouble to research it for him. Turned out nothing had been sent to the Kukkiwon, so GM Kim tested this individual to insure that he was indeed of first dan material, then sent in the paperwork to the KKW. He did not charge the student, as he felt that the student had already paid enough at the previous school.

Also, I knew a gent who paid his BB testing fee, went to test only to find the school closed and his 'master' no longer in the area. His testing fee was substantial for the time (over 200.00 in the late eighties).

I don't bring this up to talk up my GM or to be overly optimistic about the motivations of this special testing, so much as to say that I can see where a special testing opportunity such as this can redress some very real wrongs that have occurred over the years.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not in the same boat as you, Moodo, but welcome to MT!

Daniel

 

[AMP-RYU]

Yes for whatever reason they keep them on the list but never do anything for them. Why because they are so much harder to learn than the simple Tae Gueks

I personally teach the Palgwe forms because of this, I think the martial arts should be a little challenging not just a walk through!

 

[AMP-RYU]

I personally teach the Palgwe forms because of this, I think the martial arts should be a little challenging not just a walk through!

I personally don't think there is a necessity for a kukkiwan rank, what does it symbolize? Realistically isnt it just another way for someone else to make money? How do you know that a panel really judges your test and not just the next secretary in line? I personally learn from a Grandmaster and if he thinks I have the skills to teach my students then I have to believe what he says! As far as my students I trust in myself that I know my students better than anyone else and that I should be able to personally test my students when I think they are ready! Just my opinion!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

While I agree with you in principle, Amp, there are three practical reasons for KKW rank.

First, and most relevant to this discussion, there are competitions that require KKW dan rank. USAT is a sports regulatory organization and the only organization from which the US Olympic taekwondo team is drawn from.

Second, it provides some level of portable rank. If I move from Maryland to California and head into a KKW school, I need only show them my card. It isn't so much that I care about the color of my belt, but I certainly don't want some greedy school owner to tell me that I need to go through testing with the associated fees for ten-plus belts when I've already done so.

Lastly, it provides students with a certificate that has meaning greater than just the school owner's say so. Right now with the economy being bad, a number of schools in my area have closed. Having rank with an international organization protects them from the scenario I mentioned above: greedy school owner seeking to pick up some testing bucks from students who attended a school that closed.

Not that all, or even most school owners are greedy; they aren't. But some are, and there is no sure fire way to tell the greedy ones from the honest ones. Not even avoiding the McDojo format will keep you safe: there are honest McMasters and dishonest old school 'traditional' masters.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Yea Yea Yea what is all the problems, we are talking about something that is far greater than a piece of paper. We are talking about money plain and simple the kind of money only you and me can dream about. If the all mighty dollar was not important to them they would not even be asking for this, when you are going below a 4th dan you need not even show up but just send the money order/cashier check and withen a few months you can be a third with no formal training. GOD BLESS Tae Kwon Do and the GrandMaster and Masters that have made this possible for the people of America.:asian:

 

[AMP-RYU]

Yea Yea Yea what is all the problems, we are talking about something that is far greater than a piece of paper. We are talking about money plain and simple the kind of money only you and me can dream about. If the all mighty dollar was not important to them they would not even be asking for this, when you are going below a 4th dan you need not even show up but just send the money order/cashier check and withen a few months you can be a third with no formal training. GOD BLESS Tae Kwon Do and the GrandMaster and Masters that have made this possible for the people of America.:asian:

A very wise man once said...:asian:

 

[terryl965]

A very wise man once said...:asian:

And also some not wise men, like me. :asian:

 

[troubleenuf]

Actually...
Competition... the only competition you need a KKW for is if you are on the team (international meets). If you are good enough to make the team they will get you a certificate PDQ... like next day (and that requirement may be going by the wayside soon).

Portable Rank.... since the KKW has no relevant standards their certification has become to mean nothing. If a student walks into my gym regardless of his/her certification they must prove to me that they are that rank. I think thats becoming more true all the time for most organizations.

If this certification provides them with so much protection when was the last time the KKW stepped in to correct some instructor who took the money and ran? Have you EVER known them to pull someones certification? How about even send out a warning letter to someone? Anything? For an organization to have meaning they have to have some form of control over standards. Do they?

I have to admit I was tempted to do this testing.. Why? Because like many of us I too have this deep inert feeling that I must be promoted by the KKW (or a Korean) to make me feel ligit. But look at it... they have never provided me with any training, updated DVDs of technique, anything... All I ever received from them was a piece of expensive paper. I have been training for 30 years. Would any of the people who are conducting this test know me? Nope. They have no idea of who or what I am. I could be a bum of the street or the best thing since sliced bread. But they would not have a clue either way. But I will bet you large amounts of money that anyone taking this test will pass without question. They almost HAVE to... how are you going to retest if they fail you? Its a pay your money, you pass type thing. Dosnt matter who or what you are. YOU WILL PASS. Not a very meaningful test regardless of who is certifying it if you ask me.

While I agree with you in principle, Amp, there are three practical reasons for KKW rank.

First, and most relevant to this discussion, there are competitions that require KKW dan rank. USAT is a sports regulatory organization and the only organization from which the US Olympic taekwondo team is drawn from.

Second, it provides some level of portable rank. If I move from Maryland to California and head into a KKW school, I need only show them my card. It isn't so much that I care about the color of my belt, but I certainly don't want some greedy school owner to tell me that I need to go through testing with the associated fees for ten-plus belts when I've already done so.

Lastly, it provides students with a certificate that has meaning greater than just the school owner's say so. Right now with the economy being bad, a number of schools in my area have closed. Having rank with an international organization protects them from the scenario I mentioned above: greedy school owner seeking to pick up some testing bucks from students who attended a school that closed.

Not that all, or even most school owners are greedy; they aren't. But some are, and there is no sure fire way to tell the greedy ones from the honest ones. Not even avoiding the McDojo format will keep you safe: there are honest McMasters and dishonest old school 'traditional' masters.

Daniel

 

[Miles]

Actually...

If this certification provides them with so much protection when was the last time the KKW stepped in to correct some instructor who took the money and ran? Have you EVER known them to pull someones certification? How about even send out a warning letter to someone? Anything? For an organization to have meaning they have to have some form of control over standards. Do they?

There was that guy in FL who was selling rank and I understand the KKW revoked his....

I have to admit I was tempted to do this testing.. Why? Because like many of us I too have this deep inert feeling that I must be promoted by the KKW (or a Korean) to make me feel ligit. But look at it... they have never provided me with any training, updated DVDs of technique, anything... All I ever received from them was a piece of expensive paper. I have been training for 30 years. Would any of the people who are conducting this test know me? Nope. They have no idea of who or what I am. I could be a bum of the street or the best thing since sliced bread. But they would not have a clue either way. But I will bet you large amounts of money that anyone taking this test will pass without question. They almost HAVE to... how are you going to retest if they fail you? Its a pay your money, you pass type thing. Dosnt matter who or what you are. YOU WILL PASS. Not a very meaningful test regardless of who is certifying it if you ask me.

You do not need a Korean instructor to be legitimate. That's the point of the Foreigner Instructor Course. BTW, I would NOT be surprised if a number of folks failed. The pass rate in Korea for dan examinations per the KKW newsletter was not even close to 100%(I recall as the dan # went up, the rate of passing went down). The pass rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is not close to 100% (I thought I saw 45% pass rate).

 

[AMP-RYU]

There was that guy in FL who was selling rank and I understand the KKW revoked his....



You do not need a Korean instructor to be legitimate. That's the point of the Foreigner Instructor Course. BTW, I would NOT be surprised if a number of folks failed. The pass rate in Korea for dan examinations per the KKW newsletter was not even close to 100%(I recall as the dan # went up, the rate of passing went down). The pass rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is not close to 100% (I thought I saw 45% pass rate).

Realistically, does this kukkiwan rank give you any special powers or abilities you did not already have? Then it's basically a way of duping people into spending money. Remember the martial arts in that country is a business and this is the way most korean american grandmasters feel about the arts! Ask anyone of them if its okay to make profit off your students and they will give you more and even new ways to make more money off your students! The kukkiwan is nothing more than a business and if you wanna compete in international tourny's and the olympics go for it! But if you ask me it should be a tryout not an expensive peice of paper!

 

[MasterWright]

Realistically, does this kukkiwan rank give you any special powers or abilities you did not already have? Then it's basically a way of duping people into spending money. Remember the martial arts in that country is a business and this is the way most korean american grandmasters feel about the arts! Ask anyone of them if its okay to make profit off your students and they will give you more and even new ways to make more money off your students! The kukkiwan is nothing more than a business and if you wanna compete in international tourny's and the olympics go for it! But if you ask me it should be a tryout not an expensive peice of paper!

The Kukkiwon 1st Dan is only 70 dollars

 

[AMP-RYU]

The Kukkiwon 1st Dan is only 70 dollars

But what do you have to do to get it and how do you know its really graded are you there? NO! You basically paid $70 for a piece of paper! It doesnt meen your better in any way!!!!

 

[Miles]

Realistically, does this kukkiwan rank give you any special powers or abilities you did not already have? Then it's basically a way of duping people into spending money. Remember the martial arts in that country is a business and this is the way most korean american grandmasters feel about the arts! Ask anyone of them if its okay to make profit off your students and they will give you more and even new ways to make more money off your students! The kukkiwan is nothing more than a business and if you wanna compete in international tourny's and the olympics go for it! But if you ask me it should be a tryout not an expensive peice of paper!

Amp-Ryu, please see my responses (#s 22 and 23) in this thread as I think they answer your question from my personal perspective:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58893&highlight=Kukkiwon&page=2

 

[AMP-RYU]

Amp-Ryu, please see my responses (#s 22 and 23) in this thread as I think they answer your question from my personal perspective:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58893&highlight=Kukkiwon&page=2

Yes but your personal perspective is just that your personal perspective! It still has not been proven to me that the kukkiwan certs vs. the certs I give out make the Kukkiwan students better than my students!

Why should the only "real" black belt certs come from korea? Why dont we make an "official" organization here in the USA that does the certs in exchage for someones money from another country. I know its to keep everything standardized, but I dont want my style I teach standard! I want Japanese and Chinese influences along with some brazilian and so on and so forth, based of the TKD platform. TKD makes other styles easier to learn and I use it as a basis.

 

[terryl965]

Yes but your personal perspective is just that your personal perspective! It still has not been proven to me that the kukkiwan certs vs. the certs I give out make the Kukkiwan students better than my students!

Why should the only "real" black belt certs come from korea? Why dont we make an "official" organization here in the USA that does the certs in exchage for someones money from another country. I know its to keep everything standardized, but I dont want my style I teach standard! I want Japanese and Chinese influences along with some brazilian and so on and so forth, based of the TKD platform. TKD makes other styles easier to learn and I use it as a basis.

AMP-RYU no the piece of paper is not worth much to anybody really, what it does is give people the chance to compete on a International and Olympic level and if that does not mean anything to you than it is worth nothing. All KKW school will recognized a KKW certificate because it ia worldwide. Me I have no use for it at my age but my sone who is still hoping to be able to make the Olympics one day it mean alot to him right now. Basically it has value to those that what it and none to those that do not.

 

[AMP-RYU]

AMP-RYU no the piece of paper is not worth much to anybody really, what it does is give people the chance to compete on a International and Olympic level and if that does not mean anything to you than it is worth nothing. All KKW school will recognized a KKW certificate because it ia worldwide. Me I have no use for it at my age but my sone who is still hoping to be able to make the Olympics one day it mean alot to him right now. Basically it has value to those that what it and none to those that do not.

I know I realize this and thank you terry, but the only problem I have with it is if someone comes in my school and says Im not worthy to train their/them because I don't have kukkiwan, this is all. It shouldnt be the only way to "regulate black belts of TKD, thats all Im saying.

 

[troubleenuf]

Hate to tell you, I have a certificate for the "foreign instructors course". Know how I got it? Did nothing, attended nothing, was over for the World Championships a few years back and the group I was traveling with was supposed to take the course. Because of the politics at the time the course never came about.... but everyone got a certificate.
Of couse this is the same group were everyone got a black belt in Kumdo. After two lessons.
I am still betting on a 100% pass rate. $$$ Talks, especially in Korea.

There was that guy in FL who was selling rank and I understand the KKW revoked his....



You do not need a Korean instructor to be legitimate. That's the point of the Foreigner Instructor Course. BTW, I would NOT be surprised if a number of folks failed. The pass rate in Korea for dan examinations per the KKW newsletter was not even close to 100%(I recall as the dan # went up, the rate of passing went down). The pass rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is not close to 100% (I thought I saw 45% pass rate).

 

[troubleenuf]

For years I have heard the story that the KKW can/will rovoke the rank... never seen it and NEVER have I seen a form to do it. I belong to a National Horse organization who suspends people all the time... when they do it they publish names and the suspensions in their magazine. This shows EVERYONE that if they dont follow the rules and guidlines they WILL take action. On the other hand never have I seen anything in the KKW magazine regarding any action taken against someone. NEVER. I think the revoking of a certificate is like the story of the old lady who had a 64 corvette that was in her garage for the past 40 years that belonged to her son and she sold it for $100. Its a story. Never happened but sounds good. I think revoking certification from the KKW is just like that... a story, never happened but everyone knows someone who knew someone whos certification was revoked.
By the way, selling rank has become a STANDARD for the Kukkiwon. Just look at the time/age requirements that suddenly go away if you know the right people and have the right amount of cash. Unfortunately money talks with this organization.

There was that guy in FL who was selling rank and I understand the KKW revoked his....



You do not need a Korean instructor to be legitimate. That's the point of the Foreigner Instructor Course. BTW, I would NOT be surprised if a number of folks failed. The pass rate in Korea for dan examinations per the KKW newsletter was not even close to 100%(I recall as the dan # went up, the rate of passing went down). The pass rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is not close to 100% (I thought I saw 45% pass rate).

 

[YoungMan]

I'd trust a Kukkiwon certificate over most school certificates any day. At least with a KKW certificate I know approximately what I'm getting, and yes, the Kukkiwon does have guidelines as to how its authorized testings are to be administered.
With many individual school certificates, I have no idea what they consider legitimate testings. More often than not, it becomes a "we've incorporated karate, kickboxing, kung fu, and and hapkido into our class curriculum and testings". In which case it is no longer Taekwondo but mere rubbish. In these cases, the certificate is quite literally not worth the paper it's printed on. At least a Kukkiwon certificate, regardless of what many of you think, is still recognized around the world.