US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war
- Thread starter MA-Caver
- Start date
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
Whilst I agree with the logic of a hollowpoint round doing more damage and killing quicker, it is not an idea that sits well with those who write conventions. We want to be able to treat casualties remember 
When we did away with the 7.62 SLR there was alot of argument about stopping power. It still goes on today. I'm told we went with 5.56mm to fit in with NATO. The new weapon system is more accurate and far better to suited to operating in built up areas than the SLR.
I dont agree with shot placement being an argument. In a firefight, careful, control headshots arent really on the cards. Point at the big square bit in the middle.
tkd1964, I've heard that story too. I dont know how true it is, but I wouldnt bet on it.
I havent read everything on the ammo oracle site. Very interesting that FN developed the M855 round, given that they made the SLR.
5.56 is man enough for the job. Its gotta be said though that if we could have a 7.62 short (the preffered weapon of the enemy) in such an accurate weapon, it'd be worth looking at. Its getting the balance, not all ops are in an urban environment. The average range of a conventional infantry contact is 300m.
When we did away with the 7.62 SLR there was alot of argument about stopping power. It still goes on today. I'm told we went with 5.56mm to fit in with NATO. The new weapon system is more accurate and far better to suited to operating in built up areas than the SLR.
I dont agree with shot placement being an argument. In a firefight, careful, control headshots arent really on the cards. Point at the big square bit in the middle.
tkd1964, I've heard that story too. I dont know how true it is, but I wouldnt bet on it.
I havent read everything on the ammo oracle site. Very interesting that FN developed the M855 round, given that they made the SLR.
5.56 is man enough for the job. Its gotta be said though that if we could have a 7.62 short (the preffered weapon of the enemy) in such an accurate weapon, it'd be worth looking at. Its getting the balance, not all ops are in an urban environment. The average range of a conventional infantry contact is 300m.
Excuse me but an M-16 round can penetrate an engine block. How much more power is needed?
Sean
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
That is the essential problem. The M-16 with the M855 round can penetrate an engine block, it doesn't transfer the energy to the target as well as a larger calibre, or expanding bullet, would.
The M855 round was developed with a certain type of situation envisioned. That situation, fighting enemies with similar equipment, has not as yet eventuated, instead insurgents in everyday clothing are the adversary in the main. Still the M855 round does a good enough job, some thought needs to be given to increasing energy transfer though.
KenpoTex
Senior Master
any stats/info to back that up? just curious...
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
Actually ken that 300 m is about it.
Back in WW2 the Germans figured out that enguagments normaly didn't even start till inside 300 meters (yes there are exceptions, but actually few as for rifle fire.) Many were much much closer as the German 'GI's didn't want to reveal their positions early and also to make sure a good possibility of hits.
So they developed the 7.92x33. It was a split between the 9x19 in the subguns and the 7.92x57 service round. 7.92 was selected cuse their machinery for rifle making was, of course, 7.92! The MP44 was the rifle of choice for this round (though they did make another that was kind of good if weird looking.)
The Russian 7.62x33 is a ripoff of the German round, just as the apperience of the AK-47 is a ripoff of the MP44 (but the insides are much different.) For them (the Ruskies that is) it was a split between the 7.62x25(Tokarev) and the 7.62x54R (Nagant.)
more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92_x_33_mm
Back in WW2 the Germans figured out that enguagments normaly didn't even start till inside 300 meters (yes there are exceptions, but actually few as for rifle fire.) Many were much much closer as the German 'GI's didn't want to reveal their positions early and also to make sure a good possibility of hits.
So they developed the 7.92x33. It was a split between the 9x19 in the subguns and the 7.92x57 service round. 7.92 was selected cuse their machinery for rifle making was, of course, 7.92! The MP44 was the rifle of choice for this round (though they did make another that was kind of good if weird looking.)
The Russian 7.62x33 is a ripoff of the German round, just as the apperience of the AK-47 is a ripoff of the MP44 (but the insides are much different.) For them (the Ruskies that is) it was a split between the 7.62x25(Tokarev) and the 7.62x54R (Nagant.)
more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92_x_33_mm
KenpoTex
Senior Master
I may not be communicating clearly.
are y'all saying that 300 yards/meters/whatever is the maximum distance for normal encounters?
I would imagine, given the type of conflict in which we've been involved in the last 50 years or so (urban, jungle, CQB) that <100 meters would be the more common distance.
are y'all saying that 300 yards/meters/whatever is the maximum distance for normal encounters?
I would imagine, given the type of conflict in which we've been involved in the last 50 years or so (urban, jungle, CQB) that <100 meters would be the more common distance.
chinto
Senior Master
OK in the interests of full disclosure I do not like the 5.56/.223 round for military use except in very special kinds of combat. for urban combat I would take an M14 or an M1 over an M16/M4 any day.. same for mountain fighting ! in both situations the 7.62X51 or earlier 7.62X63 ( 30-06) round is a 100 times better at penitration and or putting the threat down, especially at longer ranges. .. at 50 yards the .223/5.56mm round is very very nasty!! ( especially with the original 3000 fps rounds .. but the ball powder screwed the weapon up! ) the ss109 is about 2900 fps at 61grains and the old M14 round is 150 grains at 2800fps and the old M1 30-06 is the same weight or heavier at 2900 to 2950 fps. the physics say that it will hit a lot harder then the stupid supped up basically 22 cal weapon.
so if I have to go into combat, I want a .30 cal ( 7.62) round and in 308/7.62X 51 or slightly larger.
so if I have to go into combat, I want a .30 cal ( 7.62) round and in 308/7.62X 51 or slightly larger.
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
I dont have any documents to back that up I'm afraid. Just what I was taught. Thats the average not the maximum. The old light support weapon was effective out to 500m, and the GPMG (7.62) could be used for indirect fire over miles!
It depends on the kind of operation obviously, but your weapon needs to be balanced for all kinds of operation. I bet during the invasion there were plenty of 300m contacts. I accept that more recently they are more likely to be closer than that, but there will still be a long range requirment. 5.56mm isnt perfect, but its a pretty good balance.
It depends on the kind of operation obviously, but your weapon needs to be balanced for all kinds of operation. I bet during the invasion there were plenty of 300m contacts. I accept that more recently they are more likely to be closer than that, but there will still be a long range requirment. 5.56mm isnt perfect, but its a pretty good balance.
allenjp
Brown Belt
Whoa! That sucks!
allenjp
Brown Belt
Actually, if memory serves me correctly, the russian AK round is a 7.62x39
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
Appoligies allenjp. Yes it is 39mm and not 33. Just crossed that up with the German round.
Deaf
Deaf
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