a realization, or is it?

[Steel Tiger]

I don't suppose you know about Varous? The Roman General who lost Romes three best Legions to the Germans? It fits with what you mentioned about 'assume the population is largely neutral/freindly'. It shows why that is a bad idea!

Would that be Publius Quinctilius Varus you're referring to? The whole Teutoburg Forest campaign is a very good example of failing to understand the temperament of the local population.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Would that be Publius Quinctilius Varus you're referring to? The whole Teutoburg Forest campaign is a very good example of failing to understand the temperament of the local population.

The one and the same. A history of that (and selected other campaigns) should be required reading before become a General or President. Simply to prevent more cases like that. I smell a new thread starting...

 

[tahuti]

Yes, usually generals need to get a kick if they train for past wars.

You got it right USSR, was thinking of Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik, SSSR when translating.

And regarding criminals it is not only about blowing up, what people do to protect against criminals, they organize themselves. So if your forces don't establish some resemblance of peace and order, you go against these people, adding them to insurgents.

With comparison of Germany/Iraq I was thinking of actual control of the country especially regarding criminal elements, black market and such. One of the answers could be amount of soldiers needed to achive that effect.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Yes, usually generals need to get a kick if they train for past wars.

You got it right USSR, was thinking of Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik, SSSR when translating.

And regarding criminals it is not only about blowing up, what people do to protect against criminals, they organize themselves. So if your forces don't establish some resemblance of peace and order, you go against these people, adding them to insurgents.

With comparison of Germany/Iraq I was thinking of actual control of the country especially regarding criminal elements, black market and such. One of the answers could be amount of soldiers needed to achive that effect.

You are right about the kick for training for past wars. May i ask if SSSR is Serbian for USSR? i know that the Russian is CCCP, so i'm just curious at this point.

Right. a possible (and strange, but instresting) way to training to dealing with 4th generation tactics would be to use the military to wage a pseudo-war with mobsters. who know, might work.

We are in agreement. My point about Germany v Iraq is that in the post war, Germany was basicly tired of fighting. We haven't spent the last 6 years in fierce, bloody fighting. If the case the same with Iraq, the Iraqis might not be as willing to keep fighting back. However, the Middle East isn't exactly a big fan of the West, so what do I know?

 

[tahuti]

Wrong it is transliteration of Cyrillic to Latin

Would you be able to read Сою́з Сове́тских Социалисти́ческих Респу́блик, СССР, compared to Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik, SSSR.
It is not Serbian they would have as Savez Sovjetskih Socijalističkih Republika (that weird symbol read as ch)

I would partially agree with tired of fighting, but don't forget people tend to fight hardest in their homeland.

Couldn't find number of troops deployed in 1945, but you needed to have army able to handle multiple 200,000+ prisoners. After war Germany was split in 4 administrative zones USA, British, French and Soviet.
Postwar 1945-1950,number of British troops say up to 80,000
French up to 45,000
couldn't find usa and soviet numbers

Population of Germany (1939) 79million, West Germany (1950) 50 million + 9 million exalees (Germans from middle and east Europe that moved to Germany), East Germany 14 million + 4 million exalees.

Population of Iraq 27.5 million, USA troops 166,000, other countries combined 12,000.

If I remember wasn't some military plan estimated around 400,000 troops needed.

 

[CuongNhuka]

OK, -note to self, stop trying to figure out languages you don't speak. Will result in headache-...

What you said is true about people fighting harder for there homeland. It seemed like after we "won" there was a good deal of calm, for awhile. Then the Iraqis went "Wait a minute. The Americans said they would take hussien (left lower case on purpose) out of power, they did that. They said they would give us a democratic government, they did that. They said they would train our Army to be able to deal with the terrorits, they did that. So, why are they still here? THEY'RE TRYING TO COLONIZE US!" And then they started to attack.

I think number might stem the flow of attacks. I think pulling out would show the terrorists, that we are leaving, we are not colonizeing them. Know what I mean?

 

[CuongNhuka]

OK, here is what I'm talking about. Reduce the Infantry by 1/4 of the total peace time force, and an appropreate amount of support (including Tanks, computer op.s guys, so on). Then raise the ASVAB stanards by 2 points each, and PT scores by 5% to graduate Basic. And, alter the combat training of the services to reflect a more 4th generation methodolgy.
Also, disband MCMAP, in a sense. Make it no longer a Marine only function, but one available to members of each branch of the Armed Forces. Then, make it so to graduate an AIT that is a combat brach, you have to have atleast a Black Belt in IMAP (Inter-force Martial Arts Program), and to be Spec Op.s qualified you have to have a 3rd degree in IMAP. Also, give the Army a Marksmanship requirement, and raise the standard for the Marines.
for of the Ground Combat Units have:
1 EOD per Platoon.
1 Sniper per platoon
1 Psy Op.s member per Company
1 Translator per company.

Also, have each member become a Medic.


--Scenario Campaign: Operation Roc (invasion of Iran)--
Note- I have decided to slightly alter the campaign setting. The time is 2009, Iran has fired an experimental ICMB at the United States (my research shows that Iran claims to be developing an ICBM).

-President Hillary Clinton (it makes sense for the scenario) gave a powerful speach after the missile failed to hit U.S. The U.S. officially declared War on September 20, 2009. Inspite of calls to fire a Nuclear Missile, President Hillary called for calm, a united front, and support of the Military in it's opperations in Iran.-

-September 21 - 23. Covertly assemble troops, armor, and ships in and around Iraq. Medium range missiles based in Isreal.

-1:00 AM, September 23. Stealth Bomber/missiles attacks on Missile Fire locations, Nuclear Facilities, and all importent Military Bases. As well as factories owned by the DIO, and IAIO. They are the Iranian Militaries manufactories. Complete distruction is opitmule

-1:07 AM, September 23. Ranger Platoons cut power and phone lines, detotate cell towers, and blow up roads leading out of Tehran, Mashhad, Isfahan, Tabriz, Karaj, Shiraz, and Qom. By, the way, those are Iran's 7 largest cities.

-1:14 AM, September 23. Ranger Platoons attack the personnal homes of the following individuals: Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
Vice President Parviz Davoodi
And the commanders of the Military. Iran has 12 of these commanders, so I'm sorry, but I wont list them all.
These homes are to be Bombed. The reason I did not say a bomber attack is because of the risk to adjoining buildings.

-1:20 AM, September 23. A Platoon of Rangers/Paratroopers parachute into each city I listed as needing itself cut off from the rest of Iran. The way for them is cleared by the platoon that lead the initial attacks.

-1:25 AM, September 23. 2 Platoons of Rangers/air assualt rapelle into same citys to bulster the existing 2 platoons in the citys.

-1:30 am, September 23. 1 Marine company attacks each province bordering Iraq, and progress out word with quick and deadly being the key phrases employed. Similar attacks occure on the provinces along the gulf.


Anything more and I would have to get into the specifics of how a semi-fourth generation army would be employed. Or, what to be done afterwards. Would you like me to do one or the other?

 

[Steel Tiger]

There are three things that came to mind when I read through your scenario.

The first two are related - Iran is the initial aggressor and war has been officially declared. I think this leaves the door wide open for a WWII style bombing campaign with no respect for persons. In effect the Iranian government would have made all the citizens complicit in the conflict through its actions. No Friendlies.

The second, or third if you're counting, is the time period. Five years from now? What came to my mind was the unintentional creation of a front that streches from the Jordan border to those of Pakistan and India. I cannot see the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan being resolved in five years. It took nearly ten in Vietnam and that was not as complicated as Iraq is.

 

[CuongNhuka]

There are three things that came to mind when I read through your scenario.

The first two are related - Iran is the initial aggressor and war has been officially declared. I think this leaves the door wide open for a WWII style bombing campaign with no respect for persons. In effect the Iranian government would have made all the citizens complicit in the conflict through its actions. No Friendlies.

The second, or third if you're counting, is the time period. Five years from now? What came to my mind was the unintentional creation of a front that streches from the Jordan border to those of Pakistan and India. I cannot see the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan being resolved in five years. It took nearly ten in Vietnam and that was not as complicated as Iraq is.

I don't think the military leaders would be too willing to use carpet bombing. it would remain an option, but i doubt it would the first plan.

2009 is two years in the future, not 5. I'm also running on the assumption that Hillary pulled us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, but we stayed on a semi-freindly basis with both countries. Iran and Iraq have historicly been enemies, which is why I used them as the invasion point.
I think even the terrorist would be willing to hold off the attacks long enough for us to go in and beat up their historic enemies.

 

[Blindside]

OK, here is what I'm talking about. Reduce the Infantry by 1/4 of the total peace time force, and an appropreate amount of support (including Tanks, computer op.s guys, so on). Then raise the ASVAB stanards by 2 points each, and PT scores by 5% to graduate Basic. And, alter the combat training of the services to reflect a more 4th generation methodolgy.
Also, disband MCMAP, in a sense. Make it no longer a Marine only function, but one available to members of each branch of the Armed Forces. Then, make it so to graduate an AIT that is a combat brach, you have to have atleast a Black Belt in IMAP (Inter-force Martial Arts Program), and to be Spec Op.s qualified you have to have a 3rd degree in IMAP. Also, give the Army a Marksmanship requirement, and raise the standard for the Marines.
for of the Ground Combat Units have:
1 EOD per Platoon.
1 Sniper per platoon
1 Psy Op.s member per Company
1 Translator per company.

Also, have each member become a Medic.


--Scenario Campaign: Operation Roc (invasion of Iran)--
Note- I have decided to slightly alter the campaign setting. The time is 2009, Iran has fired an experimental ICMB at the United States (my research shows that Iran claims to be developing an ICBM).

-President Hillary Clinton (it makes sense for the scenario) gave a powerful speach after the missile failed to hit U.S. The U.S. officially declared War on September 20, 2009. Inspite of calls to fire a Nuclear Missile, President Hillary called for calm, a united front, and support of the Military in it's opperations in Iran.-

-September 21 - 23. Covertly assemble troops, armor, and ships in and around Iraq. Medium range missiles based in Isreal.

-1:00 AM, September 23. Stealth Bomber/missiles attacks on Missile Fire locations, Nuclear Facilities, and all importent Military Bases. As well as factories owned by the DIO, and IAIO. They are the Iranian Militaries manufactories. Complete distruction is opitmule

-1:07 AM, September 23. Ranger Platoons cut power and phone lines, detotate cell towers, and blow up roads leading out of Tehran, Mashhad, Isfahan, Tabriz, Karaj, Shiraz, and Qom. By, the way, those are Iran's 7 largest cities.

-1:14 AM, September 23. Ranger Platoons attack the personnal homes of the following individuals: Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
Vice President Parviz Davoodi
And the commanders of the Military. Iran has 12 of these commanders, so I'm sorry, but I wont list them all.
These homes are to be Bombed. The reason I did not say a bomber attack is because of the risk to adjoining buildings.

-1:20 AM, September 23. A Platoon of Rangers/Paratroopers parachute into each city I listed as needing itself cut off from the rest of Iran. The way for them is cleared by the platoon that lead the initial attacks.

-1:25 AM, September 23. 2 Platoons of Rangers/air assualt rapelle into same citys to bulster the existing 2 platoons in the citys.

-1:30 am, September 23. 1 Marine company attacks each province bordering Iraq, and progress out word with quick and deadly being the key phrases employed. Similar attacks occure on the provinces along the gulf.

Fog of war. At least half of the assasination platoons miss because the Iranian military leaders know that the US has a long history of strategic and tactical bombing in retaliation for offenses against it. And that the US likes to target leaders in its bombing efforts, so they aren't going to stay at home with their families waiting for a JDAM. Speaking of JDAMs expect, heavy GPS jamming, how are these soldiers locating all these houses at precisely 1:14am? Street signs? Asking the friendly neighborhood open-all-night burger joint? How are these guys leaving? You already blew up the roads, so that leaves massive evacuation by air. We've already had experience with RPGs and blackhawks, much less anything more sophisticated. This is a country that has had several days to mobilize and activate reserves against anticipated attacks. (If the US can put in place all the assets you are suggesting, there is no reason Iran won't be fully mobilized.)

You have platoons trying to destroy the infrastructure of a cities of 5+ million. Please let me know how many platoons you would assign to destroy the road network around Chicago, and how long it would take them.

I think you are throwing away good soldiers for tasks that continued bombing would accomplish just as easily.

Lamont

PS: I don't see what the point of all the martial arts requirements, the SF guys that I have trained with have somehow gotten through most of their careers without being black belts. Nice? Sure, but there are other things to worry about first.

 

[Blindside]

Iran and Iraq have historicly been enemies, which is why I used them as the invasion point.
I think even the terrorist would be willing to hold off the attacks long enough for us to go in and beat up their historic enemies.

Do you think a Shiite dominated Iraqi state is going to happily let you use their country as a jumping off point to bomb a neighboring established Shiite dominated state just because they have been historic enemies?

Lamont

 

[CuongNhuka]

Part of the point of bombing the houses of importent leaders is to put it in the mind of the citizens that the US is here, and we are kicking your butts.

Finding there targets, simple, go old school. Use maps, compasses, and watches. Getting out. I never said they were leaving. I even said they were staying. Remember, go in, blow somthing up, stay and wait for re-inforcements. Anouther reason to atleast try to blow up these buildings.

You do make good points. How about carpet bomb most of the roads, and use a few smaller roads to moblize our troops, and blow them up once they've been used, better? Besides, the idea behind is to make it so that when the paratroopers come, you have soldiers in the city, around the city, and more coming down as they start to attack. See my point?

As for the Martial Arts aspect. My understaning of MCMAP is that's equal parts martial skill, physical strength, semi-useful skills, and instilling aggresion. Thus, why I put that as a requirement for combat and spec. op.s units.

Better?

 

[Steel Tiger]

2009 is two years in the future, not 5.

Oh yeah so it is!

 

[CuongNhuka]

Do you think a Shiite dominated Iraqi state is going to happily let you use their country as a jumping off point to bomb a neighboring established Shiite dominated state just because they have been historic enemies?

Lamont

Well, Iraq did take a HUGE amount of help form the U.S. during the Iraq-Iran War. We could sell it to them as a conituation.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Oh yeah so it is!

I was supposed to go five years in the future (2012), but I decided to go with 2009 (two years). It's ok Steel, I know you're a dits. LOL

 

[Blindside]

Part of the point of bombing the houses of importent leaders is to put it in the mind of the citizens that the US is here, and we are kicking your butts.

Finding there targets, simple, go old school. Use maps, compasses, and watches. Getting out. I never said they were leaving. I even said they were staying. Remember, go in, blow somthing up, stay and wait for re-inforcements. Anouther reason to atleast try to blow up these buildings.

You do make good points. How about carpet bomb most of the roads, and use a few smaller roads to moblize our troops, and blow them up once they've been used, better? Besides, the idea behind is to make it so that when the paratroopers come, you have soldiers in the city, around the city, and more coming down as they start to attack. See my point?

Better?

Blowing up roads behind just screws up your logistic train.

I'm not sure that massive air attacks, sending in highly trained forces to take vital points, and then hitting them with a big hammer while they are distracted is revolutionary. In fact, it sounds alot like Normandy.

Lamont

 

[CuongNhuka]

Screws up our logistics train, and basicly screws the Iranian armies chance of sending in heavy reinforcements. And there is more then one way of getting suppies to an army.

I am aware. At the end of post where I put my "battle plan" if you wanted I could post more ground level tactics.