US Police wage war against rogue lemonade stands

[cdunn]

The "permission slips" establish responsibility when someone uses a spoiled or tainted ingredient and a hundred people get the runs and three of them die from it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Get the permit and save yourself potential issues.

If Jr. has mommy and daddy front the full cost of all ingredients and materials (meaning no out of pocket), and sells 50 cups of sugar water at $2 each, jr will face a net loss of $300 after obtaining the $400 permit. Or his parents will spend $450 so jr can make $100.

Only a fool would do that.

 

[MJS]

If Jr. has mommy and daddy front the full cost of all ingredients and materials (meaning no out of pocket), and sells 50 cups of sugar water at $2 each, jr will face a net loss of $300 after obtaining the $400 permit. Or his parents will spend $450 so jr can make $100.

Only a fool would do that.

Is the $400 figure a factual number or just an example?

 

[Archangel M]

I suggest that people actually read the details on these incidents before commenting about the LEO's involved. While a few are vauge in the details of why exactly the officers were taking the action they did, most of them appear to have special circumstances.

 

[billc]

Or, get organized and replace the people in charge of the village. Stop putting the kids and the cops in these situations by putting people who think into the position of making the ordinances. There is the story of Sony Bono, the ex-husband of Cher. He opened a restaraunt in the town he lived in in california. He wanted to put up a sign for his restaraunt and he began the process of getting the permits and paying the fees. Several years later, the sign still hadn't been put up because of the morass of permits and fees and regulations. At one point the "sign commissioner" was talking to Bono about the situation and Bono said, " I know how to get my sign put up," the commisioner said "Yeah, how's that." Bono said, " I'm going to get elected Mayor and then I'm going to fire you." He did and then he did. Sonny Bono then went on to congress. That is the American way of getting things done. Stop blaming the cops. Go after the useless, meddling, greedy politicians.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Is the $400 figure a factual number or just an example?

Factual number in 1 case. Don't have time to research every case in depth.

 

[Makalakumu]

The "permission slips" establish responsibility when someone uses a spoiled or tainted ingredient and a hundred people get the runs and three of them die from it.

That assumes this couldn't be done without the "permission slip" or "fee". I disagree.

The point that I'm making and that Bob is arguing (I'm assuming) is based on principle. Its wrong when a group of people with guns shake you down for money and time when all you want to do it engage in legitimate trade. If we take away the government label, we'd call this group of people, the mafia or some other organized crime syndicate. It's legalized extortion and it's wrong.

Whilst I understand the pragmatic argument of "get the permission slip so the guys with costumes leave you alone" it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong in principle. If people tell the legalized mafia to **** themselves and get busted, they have every right to complain and let everyone know that it's ********.

Think about all of the hurdles that prevent a guy from making a living living when circumstances change. All of these barriers freeze society and create dependence on those who issue the permission slips. This isn't what freedom looks like.

 

[Archangel M]

So you are for unregulated commerce?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Yup.

The government's track record in improving this vs screwing them up def. favors them not touching things.

In 1850, I could fish, hunt, marry, build a house and open a business without having to wade through a maze of permits, fees, regulations, and what not.
160 years later it seems I'm lucky there isn't a $1 a turd pooping fee and a special fecal police squad.
Ridiculous? Maybe. But think about how many other things have fees tacked on them today. It's insane.

Crap, I can't even buy a blank data cd without the RIAA and MPAA getting a cut of the sale.
I need a permit to set up a yard sale, and can only do that twice a year, and need to get a sales tax permit and handle paperwork on that.
Just so I can sell a couple old magazines and a box of books worth maybe $20.

And people wonder why innovation in the US is at an all time low.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Honestly, what does all this harassment of kids get us?

Stiffed innovation.
Kids afraid of cops.
Kids resentful of politicians.
Stifled entrepreneurial spirit.

Hell, I don't even want to bother trying to do another yard sale because the Buffalo PD threatened me with a $200 fine for putting a sign up.

 

[Archangel M]

Unregulated trade/commerce is fine in theory but a nightmare in actual application. I don't think that any known civilization has been free of some sort of regulation. Reasonable regulation vs uncontrolled and purely revenue based regulation? Sure. Some company allowed to do/dump/burn/ etc whatever they want to in my backyard? No thanks.

Again. It seems that most of your examples here are NOT "cop drives down street and fines/yells at every kid selling lemonade".

 

[Makalakumu]

Unregulated trade/commerce is fine in theory but a nightmare in actual application. I don't think that any known civilization has been free of some sort of regulation. Reasonable regulation vs uncontrolled and purely revenue based regulation? Sure. Some company allowed to do/dump/burn/ etc whatever they want to in my backyard? No thanks.

Again. It seems that most of your examples here are NOT "cop drives down street and fines/yells at every kid selling lemonade".

If it's your backyard and you have a reasonable way of asserting your property rights, how much more do you need?

The problem with government regulation is that even though it may start out as well intentioned, it always bends towards graft in the end. Self interest always wins. Self interest combined with legalized violence creates a society of corruption.

 

[Makalakumu]

So you are for unregulated commerce?

I only know how to regulate myself. How can I regulate my neighbor without taking into account my own self interest?

 

[granfire]

Unregulated trade/commerce is fine in theory but a nightmare in actual application. I don't think that any known civilization has been free of some sort of regulation. Reasonable regulation vs uncontrolled and purely revenue based regulation? Sure. Some company allowed to do/dump/burn/ etc whatever they want to in my backyard? No thanks.

Again. It seems that most of your examples here are NOT "cop drives down street and fines/yells at every kid selling lemonade".

The US is going overboard with some of it.
Sure when you make a living of doing flea markets and trade days, you also need to pay your taxes (that is done around here via honr system as it pertains to sales tax, thogh I wonder if it really is worth the trouble...)

Every little thing you take in, there is a tax on it.
Like I said, you do it professionally, no problem. But having to pay taxes when you made a profit from selling one horse, or one car....the house you lived in for several years....the couple hundred bucks you won at the track....
You get nickeled and dimed to death.

I see it were the kids can't set up shop where professionals paid a lot of money for their license. That would not be ok...

However, I think we are mixing the 2 stories up, the one with the Georgia girls and the other cases....the first one did not seem to be associated with anything but the neighborhood and 3 kids wanting to earn their way to a fun day in the water park (that in turn provided the admission and the lemonade stand, awesome PR move!)

One really should not have to buy a permit for a yard sale where you might not even sell one single piece (and one should not need more than one , 2 max a year either)
That makes it easier 9and more profitable) to call the Goodwill and have them write you a donation slip as they haul your old crud away!

We are bombarded with silly rules and regulations.

Kids can win icecream parties, or pizza parties for performing well in the schools fund raisers....but I had all kinds of problems bringing stored bought cup cakes for the birthday of my kid....or the pizzas...

A friend had to make sure the chili or whatever she brought was restaurant made....she was in the business, she remarked on how nasty some restaurants are....most certainly not as clean as her own kitchen....

 

[Archangel M]

If it's your backyard and you have a reasonable way of asserting your property rights, how much more do you need?

The problem with government regulation is that even though it may start out as well intentioned, it always bends towards graft in the end. Self interest always wins. Self interest combined with legalized violence creates a society of corruption.

Till your kids start complaining that their water tastes like lead and they get chemical burns on their feet when they play outside....

Look at what unregulated (or stupidly regulated) banking did to our economy vis a vis the housing market. While I am for small government Im not quite ready for NO government.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Till your kids start complaining that their water tastes like lead and they get chemical burns on their feet when they play outside....

Look at what unregulated (or stupidly regulated) banking did to our economy vis a vis the housing market. While I am for small government Im not quite ready for NO government.

I'm not advocating no government, just as little as possible.

As to the banking mess....blame Hamilton. It was his idea.

 

[Makalakumu]

Till your kids start complaining that their water tastes like lead and they get chemical burns on their feet when they play outside....

Look at what unregulated (or stupidly regulated) banking did to our economy vis a vis the housing market. While I am for small government Im not quite ready for NO government.

Pollution is a property rights issue. Maybe we can solve things voluntarily without resorting to political force. The banking situation is the result of political force. Self interest at the point of a gun.

 

[Archangel M]

Pollution is a property rights issue. Maybe we can solve things voluntarily without resorting to political force. The banking situation is the result of political force. Self interest at the point of a gun.

Are you one of those sovereign citizen types? This is starting to sound like one of their chapter and verses. Redefining our entire legal system based on property rights and private courts just isn't ever going to happen.

While I agree that the "promote the general welfare" part of the Constitution has been overreached at times and twisted for political purposes, it does have it's place. I don't think it should be MY personal duty, expense, and effort to keep a company from polluting my ENTIRE areas environment. Neither should all of my neighbors have to pony up for lawyers to file personal lawsuits every single time a neighbor does something the effects the community as a whole.

 

[Makalakumu]

Are you one of those sovereign citizen types? This is starting to sound like one of their chapter and verses. Redefining our entire legal system based on property rights and private courts just isn't ever going to happen.

I'm just playing with ideas, Arch. I might be one of those guys someday, who knows. I completely understand where you are coming from and the pessimistic part of me thinks it's a pollyanna idealistic utopia. On the other hand, philosophically, this makes a lot of sense. I'm wrestling with ideas, brother...

 

[billc]

Actually, it was government interference in the loan process that made the subprime mortgage problem. the clintons, Barney frank Chris Dodd and the like, with some republican help, forced banks to make loans to people with no business buying a house. This started the problem, and Barney Frank kept other people from fixing the problem. Check out the book "Wreckless Endangerment," it goes through the whole mess and names the names of the guilty.

http://www.amazon.com/Reckless-Endangerment-Outsized-Corruption-Armageddon/dp/0805091203/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312494686&sr=1-1

reviews of the book:

"Gretchen Morgenson is a national treasure. Year after year, she has dragged Wall Street miscreants out of the shadows, exposing their dirty secrets to the public that they bamboozled with schemes and deceits. Now, working with Joshua Rosner, she has trained her expert eye on the mortgage mess that pushed the American economy to the brink. In stunning detail, Morgenson exposes the truth behind the worst financial calamity of modern times, weaving a tale that is as mesmerizing as it is horrifying. Reckless Endangerment names the names and reveals the secrets of the plutocrats and politicians whose greed and recklessness threatened the foundations of capitalism. It is essential reading for anyone struggling to understand how America entered the new era of financial chaos."—Kurt Eichenwald, New York Timesbestselling author of Conspiracy of Fools and The Informant
"Even before Reckless Endangerment, Gretchen Morgenson was my nominee for Reporter of the Decade for her forensic and prophetic coverage of Wall Street. Now, she and the equally talented sleuth Joshua Rosner, like Holmes and Dr. Watson, have pieced together the clues to a seminal mystery of the financial debacle: how American taxpayers were suckered by the shenanigans, greed, egos, back scratching, and guile of financial and political elites who swarmed like vultures around Fannie Mae, picking it clean of oversight and accountability while its executives gorged themselves on the spoils. Naming names and taking no prisoners, they drill deep into one of the most disturbing scandals of our time, perpetrated in the name of helping "the little guy." Read it and weep. Read it and vow: Never Again!—Bill Moyers, journalist, and President, Schumann Media Center

about the book

In Reckless Endangerment, Gretchen Morgenson, the star business columnist of The New York Times, exposes how the watchdogs who were supposed to protect the country from financial harm were actually complicit in the actions that finally blew up the American economy.
Drawing on previously untapped sources and building on original research from coauthor Joshua Rosner—who himself raised early warnings with the public and investors, and kept detailed records—Morgenson connects the dots that led to this fiasco.
Morgenson and Rosner draw back the curtain on Fannie Mae, the mortgage-finance giant that grew, with the support of the Clinton administration, through the 1990s, becoming a major opponent of government oversight even as it was benefiting from public subsidies. They expose the role played not only by Fannie Mae executives but also by enablers at Countrywide Financial, Goldman Sachs, the Federal Reserve, HUD, Congress, the FDIC, and the biggest players on Wall Street, to show how greed, aggression, and fear led countless officials to ignore warning signs of an imminent disaster.
Character-rich and definitive in its analysis, this is the one account of the financial crisis you must read.