Upper cut to the underam question

[Lynne]

Where are your legs/hips situated at the moment the strike is launched?

I don't see myself throwing an uppercut to the armpit when the solar plexus and jaw are right there.....HOWEVER.......If my left arm has hold of his right arm/wrist( like maybe i just blocked/caught a punch) and my right arm is to throw the "uppercut", if you check your hips into them and instead let the "uppercut"become a scoop where his right arm is held onto by your left hand near the wrist, and his upper arm in the crook of your "uppercut", you're three-quarters the way into an ippon seoinage as in Judo/Jujutsu ( one arm shoulder throw).

We haven't actually practiced an uppercut to the underarm as a technique unto itself. The uppercut is the second move in one of our forms, Pyung Ahn E Dan.

The first move in the form is a combination; one arm is blocking one's head and the other arm is extending into a hammerstrike. Since blocks are really strikes in TSD, you are hitting the opponent with both fists. Even the fist blocking and protecting the head strikes out and hits the top of the opponent's head or forehead because you punch as you are doing it. The hammerstrike is to hit the nose. The person will involuntarily lean over. In most cases, you'd probably uppercut to the underchin area. But you can uppercut to the underarm area. Probably the last thing I'd think of.

(If anyone wants to make clarifications about Pyung Ahn E Dan, please feel free to do so. Some schools also use a yup makee instead of the hammerstrike.)

However, I can see how the underarm uppercut could be used in some combinations. Say, we grab a person's wrist with one of our hands on top and the other underneath, and spin underneath their arm, and end up either in front of them or off to the side. If their arm is drawn up in a "chicken wing" fashion, we usually uppercut or reverse punch to the kidneys/side of ribs. At that point, you could definitely uppercut to the underarm area.

In Judo, I know that you typically use the person's momentum against them. (I remember one basic throw with the person coming behind you - I'll never forget how to reach behind, grab the shoulder, squat down a little and lean over while pulling. I remember the judo roll,too - where you lay on your back, put your feet on the abs or hips and throw the person behind you. I've always suspected they'd actually land on top of me though if it were a real attack...and if they weighed a lot.) I suppose if someone were attacking you from behind, you could drop down while holding onto their arm and then strike upward into the armpit. In a self-defense situation though, it seems more likely to hammer the groin then do a headbutt when they lean over or pull them over. If they were coming toward you, I imagine you could grab the arm, lift it and do a uppercut to the underarm. That would be something. Their momentum against your fist. But if your fist wasn't formed 100% properly, I think you'd wind up with a broken wrist. Maybe you would both pass out, lol.

 

[Lynne]

The theory is that you can hit someone there hard enough to cause a tear in the axillary artery (where it becomes the brachial artery). That's why a spearhand is suggested.

Eh, I am unaware of any known successes with this approach.

I was told that a spearhand or punch to the throat causes soft tissue damage and the person asphyxiates.

 

[Lynne]

I am constantly amazed how many times I hear people - even in my own dojang - say how "this technique can kill someone" or something to that effect. The bottom line with killing someone is that EVERYONE is different. One technique that works on one person will not on another. With the right combination of attacker and defender, a single punch to the face can kill someone, but there really are very few "one hit one kill" techniques in the real world - especially ones that are guaranteed. Passing out is the same way....some people can take a lot of punishment and maintain consciousness. The only sure fire way to put someone out is to cut off blood and air to the brain for an appropriate amoutn of time.

As for a punch to the shoulder killing, or even causing someone to pass out - I seriously doubt it.

Also, on another note, I urge you to think critically about the actual application of that movement. Think about the entire sequence instead of individual movements. There are MANY MANY applications for that movement, most of them much more effective then a complex and difficult strike such as an underarm strike. Remember that when you're trying to punch them in their armpit, they are trying to stop you....there are better targets.

My favorite application is from a wrist grab (in the choon bee), this moves into a lock, a break, and a hit.

That sounds like one of the two wrist grips I just learned for my 5th gup, natural and unnatural grabs.

We stand next to one another. The attacker grabs the victim's wrist overhand (called an unnatural grab though is seems natural to me, lol). Victim sidekicks to the attacker's knee, grabs attacker's hand tightly with opposite hand holding it in place on one's wrist, steps forward just in front of attacker's foot, victim takes the grabbed arm and brings it up and over attacker's wrist, pushes downward and back. WOW. Is that the one? I sent my instructor to the floor the other night and he tapped out. He was shaking his arm after that. I felt terrible. I had no idea... Hey, at least I know I was doing it right!

 

[MBuzzy]

However, I can see how the underarm uppercut could be used in some combinations. Say, we grab a person's wrist with one of our hands on top and the other underneath, and spin underneath their arm, and end up either in front of them or off to the side. If their arm is drawn up in a "chicken wing" fashion, we usually uppercut or reverse punch to the kidneys/side of ribs. At that point, you could definitely uppercut to the underarm area.

Here's the bottom line though - if you have an opening like this and a target available like the KIDNEYS. A VERY vulnerable point on almost everyone that can cause extreme pain and in some cases permanent damage - why take your chance with something as uncertain and difficult as an armpit strike. The kidneys - easy to hit. The Heart meridian or lymph nodes under the arm pit....Well, you think you have a hard time finding the pressure points on the wrist! Try that one! Its vulnerable, but you have to know where it is and hitting it with a FIST makes it even harder.

I honestly think (aluding to my earlier post) that a large part of this question can be answered simply by reexamining your application of the movement. I struggled with it for a LONG time, until I was shown a whole new world of applications to that movement. The thinking that the first move is a high block and back fist or yup mahk kee is not the only interpretation...in fact, there are some that I think fit much better.

 

[MBuzzy]

That sounds like one of the two wrist grips I just learned for my 5th gup, natural and unnatural grabs.

We stand next to one another. The attacker grabs the victim's wrist overhand (called an unnatural grab though is seems natural to me, lol). Victim sidekicks to the attacker's knee, grabs attacker's hand tightly with opposite hand holding it in place on one's wrist, steps forward just in front of attacker's foot, victim takes the grabbed arm and brings it up and over attacker's wrist, pushes downward and back. WOW. Is that the one? I sent my instructor to the floor the other night and he tapped out. He was shaking his arm after that. I felt terrible. I had no idea... Hey, at least I know I was doing it right!

Sorry, my last response was while you were typing!

I can definately see an application to a side by side grab that works very well....and would make that whole first sequence make much more sense. You'd have to work with it a bit to figure out where the lock is....but it works. I've seen it as a front grab, front punch, two attackers, kicks....you name it. This is, in my opinion, one of the most enigmatic moves of all of the pyang ahns.

 

[MBuzzy]

DEFINATELY check out this article....it might show you a bit of what I'm talking about.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp

 

[Lynne]

Here's the bottom line though - if you have an opening like this and a target available like the KIDNEYS. A VERY vulnerable point on almost everyone that can cause extreme pain and in some cases permanent damage - why take your chance with something as uncertain and difficult as an armpit strike. The kidneys - easy to hit. The Heart meridian or lymph nodes under the arm pit....Well, you think you have a hard time finding the pressure points on the wrist! Try that one! Its vulnerable, but you have to know where it is and hitting it with a FIST makes it even harder.

I honestly think (aluding to my earlier post) that a large part of this question can be answered simply by reexamining your application of the movement. I struggled with it for a LONG time, until I was shown a whole new world of applications to that movement. The thinking that the first move is a high block and back fist or yup mahk kee is not the only interpretation...in fact, there are some that I think fit much better.

I doubt I'd ever think of the underarm area in a real self-defense situation. We would have had to practice underarm strikes over and over ad nausem, I think. As a female, I'd probably go with a roundhouse or front kick to the groin, and then a punch to the nose, and run like heck. Master R tells us to finish the job but I'm not sure if I would have the guts to jump on top of a guy and break his arms. Fight or flight? Hmmm.

The instructor was merely saying you could do an underam uppercut. Something I would have never, ever thought of, precisely because of what you were talking about, practical applications, more accessible areas.

 

[Lynne]

DEFINATELY check out this article....it might show you a bit of what I'm talking about.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp

Thank you, Craig. I'll read through that. Is it ok if I have questions? (I don't know what I'm doing most of the time in the Pyung Ahn forms - not that the instructors aren't willing to explain - there just isn't too much time in class to ask questions.)

 

[MBuzzy]

Master R tells us to finish the job but I'm not sure if I would have the guts to jump on top of a guy and break his arms. Fight or flight? Hmmm.

I know that this is off topic....but I can't let it go.

THIS SHOULD HAVE SET OFF YOUR BS METER!!!!!!!

The advice that you are given puts you in grave personal danger. The idea of "finishing the job" can get you in a lot of trouble. Legally, as soon as the other person is disarmed or disabled, you become the aggressor. Anything you do after that, you willl be viewed as the attacker, no matter how he came at you. If you get in this situation, disable, disarm, RUN. Do what you have to so that he can't chase, but the finishing him off mentality is bad juju. Run and call the cops. Being the first one to call makes a big difference too.

Ok, sorry....back to topic. If we want to discuss this one more, it could probably lend itself to a new thread.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thank you all for the replies. I ask questions when I'm unsure about something or if my BS detector goes off.

Regarding the fact that is not easy to strike a pressure point with accuracy or enough force got me thinking. I've been taking TSD classes for about 15 months now. We do a lot of hand-foot combinations (one-step sparring/Il Soo Sik Deh Ryun). From my first week, I've been doing chop blocks to the outer wrists of my classmates. Not once has anyone hit a pressure point on my outer wrist. True, we try to be controlled, so we are not hitting with full force of course.

Once I hit a pressure point on my classmates wrist and his forearm cramped up pretty bad. That's only happened once in 15 months. We were doing punching-blocking drills. My classmate was doing a punch to my nose and then a reverse punch to my solar plexus. My job was to block both punches using the same arm - 1,2. So, I was doing an inside-outside block (almost a backfist really) to the nose punch, and then bringing my wrist down across the top of his wrist during the reverse punch. It was the downward block that got him. I don't even know how I did that. It was an accident.

And now try hitting a pressure point when the other person is seriously trying to do you bodily harm, attacking and swinging wildly. Pressure points are not easy to use and take a WHOLE lot of training if that is to be the chosen method of defense.

My taiji Sifu likely could but then he has been training for over 50 years and he has also been an acupuncturist for about as long. My wife could likely do it as well but she has been a TCM OMD for around 20 years.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I totally agree

I may practice attacks on the nerves every day but moving in real speed against an opponent I do not usually spar with limits the amount of true hits on the nerve i am aiming at.
Hitting the nerve complex or the exact point of to tear in the axillary artery (where it becomes the brachial artery) would either be a lucky strike or a one in a million strike in a fight

 

[kaizasosei]

rare yet true, occasionaly certain soccer players actually die from overexertion. Death by ball i suppose. i know it's not really the same thing but it shows that the body does have it's limits when it comes to vital body functions. face it, when it comes to harsh fighting, violent acts or assault people die from beatings quite often-without weapons that is-. many are maimed. some never get to know chigung at all.
the question i suppose is can someone kill another in a single swift and effective move, chances are in a fancy kindof way-
of course it is possible with enough power, focus. but as i see it, i have enough to think about when it comes to knocking out or striking at all.
death takes it to another level. even if you could drop a tv on someone that is unsuspectingly lying on the floor- the question would arise, why are you trying to kill someone in the first place.
in ma however, there do exist such techniques and as in any sport precautions must be made to avoid unnecessary injury. again , weightlifting, hunting, bungee jumping - -
so it does happen that instructors will sometimes, mention that a certain area is vulnerable or perhaps shift awareness to a certain area for the students.
whatever the case in order to have sufficient power to do any damage at all, you need to have certain degree of power, focus and intimate knowledge of your exact target as well as the whole body. wow, i think this really ties in with koppo of the bujinkan. you gotta be standing just right to use power effectively and avoid danger. after that the uppercut to the underarm-DEATH TOUCH!!!

j

 

[arnisador]

I was told that a spearhand or punch to the throat causes soft tissue damage and the person asphyxiates.

You can make the larynx spasm or collapse the trachea elsewhere. It's covered in mucus and can stay shut, precipitating the need for a tracheotomy. There are lots of reasons why a blow to the head/neck can kill. People black out, fall, and hit their head, leading to a fatal injury, more often than you'd think. I'd wager that more trauma is caused by the fall than from the actual punch to the head that causes it in most cases.

All that having been said, making it happen is a lot harder than it looks. Why aren't there more KOs in boxing/MMA/etc.? Anything can happen and has happened, but biology is notoriously unpredictable. (How is this guy still alive?) You can't count on a throat strike collapsing the windpipe...and, as the police have learned, can't count on it not accidentally injuring the spinal cord when you don't want that to happen. You have to play the odds!


As to the underarm punch, remember that this technique is more viable if you bend someone over with a wristlock/armbar and then try to knee them there. Separating the shoulder, driving the ribs into organs, and conceivably causing spontaneous dissection of an artery are surely among the possibilities. Most times none of these things will happen (at least not from a single blow). But please excuse an ugly thought experiment: If a five year old tried it on a linebacker, there'd almost surely be no effect. If it's the other way around...ugh. Where is the in-between situation of you against a person who would attack you?

 

[DavidCC]

Whenever you hit someone, you are choosing a target on their body. "Aim small, miss small" as they say. Studying Kyusho or similar body of knowledge gives you information on possible targets.

As far as "underarm" that is a vague term.

Right punch, Try a left inward parry, followed closely (half-beat or closer -"ba=boom" timing) by a rising forearm or punch otthe bottom of the upper arm, try to pinch the inner edge of the tricep against the humerus. "heart 2" is the specific point, but does this sound so difficult? it isn't, with practice.

Lynn, your profile says "northeast", which is vague, but new England has a high concentration of Kyusho instructios. if you PM I can point you to some Kyusho instructors in your area. or just go to http://www.kyusho.com/instructors.htm.

The program is structured to supplement, not replace, your current training. Many of them focus on applications of traditional kata, the forms you are already doing...

 

[Tez3]

DEFINATELY check out this article....it might show you a bit of what I'm talking about.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp

Damn you got there first lol! I was just scrolling down to write that too! I've got Iain's DVD on Bunkai which includes this as well as a great many others. Excellent value , really recommend it!

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Hey Andy, stop by some time and I'll be happy to work on this uppercut to the underarm with you. :uhyeah:

I think it has been too long and that Carol and I must plan another visit soon