Unreal Speed!

[geezer]

I was watching some Youtube clips at a friends (I just have dial-up, so I don't bother to watch clips that often). Anyway, there were some clips of a guy launching combination attacks out of chi-sau at unreal speed. On repeated viewings his hands were just a blur...so much so that it was hard to clearly decipher exactly what he was doing. It kind of reminded me of people trying to see how many punches they could clock in a second. Fun, but kind of pointless.

Now I really admire the speed and efficiency of WC/WT, but more for the efficiency than the velocity! It seems to me that what really matters is who gets in with the first solid shot and then can follow it up with relentless attacks. Getting that first, good shot in is a function of distance and position, timing, finding the opening, and driving it home hard. Making your hands fly in an unreal blur is impressive, but unless that blur conceals really solid technique, it is also literally unreal from a combat perspective. Any thoughts?

 

[mook jong man]

Is that the one where the guy is doing lots of tan sau's and man sau's to the other guys throat , if thats the one you mean , yeah i've seen it .

It sounds like it is a German school because you can hear a guy in the background counting in German.
That dude is incredibly fast , but as you allude to , speed is only one part of the equation .

I have seen people who had fast hands but they could not transfer their bodyweight into the strike effectively.

 

[KamonGuy2]

You are talking about pressure techniques where you basically bully your opponent (pummel in and keep the pressure on). Yes it can be an extremely effective way of ending a fight, but relies a lot on you being
a) fit
b) powerful with your strikes
c) putting continuous pressure onto your attacker

Sometimes it is better to just have a great hit (powerful hit) and do one or two great strikes as opposed to thousands of itty bitty strikes...

 

[kidswarrior]

It seems to me that what really matters is who gets in with the first solid shot and then can follow it up with relentless attacks. Getting that first, good shot in is a function of distance and position, timing, finding the opening, and driving it home hard.

I think most here have agreed with this, and I would too. Landing a strike to a *soft* or vital point gives you the second or so which it takes him to recover to make the next move, which does the same thing, by which time (in the ideal scenario) you can finish it. The three second fight is over.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Speed is nice but without power it is pretty pointless. I can hit you 25 times with a pillow or once with a Melon Hammer the pillow is annoying but the Melon Hammer is painful.

I believe I have seen that video as well and his speed is impressive but I will admit I was wondering just exactly how much power each punch had. And I can see where that could upset or even confuse an opponent but if that opponent where to side step it seems the focus on forward punching at such a high rate of speed would really mess up your ability to follow

 

[geezer]

Sometimes it is better to just have a great hit (powerful hit) and do one or two great strikes as opposed to thousands of itty bitty strikes...

Yes, absolutely!

Now I don't know where the video-clip I saw came frome since I was watching over a friends shoulder when he said "Hey, what do you think of this...", but I think it was the German one Mook mentioned. In that case, it was probably an instructor of the German branch of my own WT lineage. And it was pretty cool. And, the guy is probably a lot more trained than I am--I hear they maintain a pretty high standard over there. But I know I'll never be able to throw out stuff at that speed and get any real "oomph" into my shots. So I'll stick with my original position on this.

 

[kidswarrior]

Speed is nice but without power it is pretty pointless. I can hit you 25 times with a pillow or once with a Melon Hammer the pillow is annoying but the Melon Hammer is painful.

:rofl:

An old sifu I had used to say, hit him so he stays hit.

 

[naneek]

An old sifu I had used to say, hit him so he stays hit. Yesterday 05:23 PM
haha very true otherwise whats the point of hitting him at all

 

[Xue Sheng]

:rofl:

An old sifu I had used to say, hit him so he stays hit.

:lol:

That is pretty much the whole philosophy of Xingyiquan

 

[brocklee]

I've seen the video too and it looks pretty cool. It appears that the camera is pretty cheap, or maybe in order to upload they had to shrink the file size and this effected the quality. Looks cool though, not sure how effective or useful this may be in a real life situation.

It would have been really cool if the at the end the guy made it look like he pulled a quarter from behind the other guys ear. lol

 

[Touch Of Death]

I was watching some Youtube clips at a friends (I just have dial-up, so I don't bother to watch clips that often). Anyway, there were some clips of a guy launching combination attacks out of chi-sau at unreal speed. On repeated viewings his hands were just a blur...so much so that it was hard to clearly decipher exactly what he was doing. It kind of reminded me of people trying to see how many punches they could clock in a second. Fun, but kind of pointless.

Now I really admire the speed and efficiency of WC/WT, but more for the efficiency than the velocity! It seems to me that what really matters is who gets in with the first solid shot and then can follow it up with relentless attacks. Getting that first, good shot in is a function of distance and position, timing, finding the opening, and driving it home hard. Making your hands fly in an unreal blur is impressive, but unless that blur conceals really solid technique, it is also literally unreal from a combat perspective. Any thoughts?

Put a guys head inside that blur and ask him which strikes felt solid and which were not. My point is when you think "through not to" a solid locked out punch is slow and unusefull.
Sean

 

[geezer]

Put a guys head inside that blur and ask him which strikes felt solid and which were not. My point is when you think "through not to" a solid locked out punch is slow and unusefull.
Sean

Interesting response. But it ain't gonna be my head. You go first!!!

Oh, by the way, a strong, "solid" punch doesn't have to be "locked out" or slow. A hard hitting punch is usually fast...since acceleration is as important than mass in generating a good impact. I just find that when people zip out half a dozen or more lighting fast techniques in a row, technique, and consequently, power often go out the window. At least that's true for me...but hey, I'm still learning.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Interesting response. But it ain't gonna be my head. You go first!!!

Oh, by the way, a strong, "solid" punch doesn't have to be "locked out" or slow. A hard hitting punch is usually fast...since acceleration is as important than mass in generating a good impact. I just find that when people zip out half a dozen or more lighting fast techniques in a row, technique, and consequently, power often go out the window. At least that's true for me...but hey, I'm still learning.

Agreed

And just as a comment; a strong, "solid" punch is not "locked out" that would be over extended, not solid and lose strength.

 

[martyg]

Agreed

And just as a comment; a strong, "solid" punch is not "locked out" that would be over extended, not solid and lose strength.

Good saying. You could also extend that to the rest of the body as well, i.e. the body as well should not be locked out and able to support actual yi and the release of power and its various expressions (ging's). Tension is often mistaken for alignment.

 

[BFL]

Having the ability to throw out ten techniques in a second or two is awesome skill, however, I do not teach my students to go for the addicting speed, speed, speed as I feel it's an ego pump when it's your main focus.
The oponent is not going to sit there and "take it" like a student or training partner will. Combat is toooo fluid, too many variables to deal with. I teach "go slow to get fast" and good technique, the ability to flow with soft energy and power delivered (as it hit's target) in an explosive manner, a penetrating energy that actually does something.
Now, that being said, yes, fast is awesome and it truly does demonstrate one of the abilities you can develop through the practice of Wing Chun and it IS a skill we need, don't missunderstand my intentions, however speed is a result not a goal and not something to have as a priority. When I was younger I could throw 5 maybe 6 punches per/sec and I'm sure there are many out there whom are faster than that, but when your oponent get's hit the first time his body is going to change/react in a manner that will then cause you the practitioner to adjust what your doing, follow the energy and let your weapons find their new target and flow, adjust, strike all at once. If your main goal is speed and that's how you train, your going to be left holding the bag so to speak when your throwing a flury of rapid techniques, but your enemies position has now been altered. IMO.
Peace to all, be kind to others and train well,
BFL

 

[Touch Of Death]

Interesting response. But it ain't gonna be my head. You go first!!!

Oh, by the way, a strong, "solid" punch doesn't have to be "locked out" or slow. A hard hitting punch is usually fast...since acceleration is as important than mass in generating a good impact. I just find that when people zip out half a dozen or more lighting fast techniques in a row, technique, and consequently, power often go out the window. At least that's true for me...but hey, I'm still learning.

As long as you adhere to proper motion speed should involve proper motion. Elbows down et cetera

 

[qwksilver61]

question;has anyone ever overcome an opponent with skill versus speed ie;starting later but arriving sooner?

 

[kidswarrior]

question;has anyone ever overcome an opponent with skill versus speed ie;starting later but arriving sooner?

Don't know if this is what you have in mind, but I've used blocks in the real world. It always set up the counter nicely. I say this because so many martial artists seem to claim blocking doesn't work (it goes: *action is faster--read, always beats--reaction*). But it has been reliable for me.

Have more often just slipped the punch and launched the counter.

 

[qwksilver61]

Right on! slipping past the punch,utilizing the protractor! Dude you rock!Theory! Study Hard!