What if the rules are designed so that they protect people who have done something bad from facing the music? What if the people who have done wrong make the rules?
University of Florida Student Tazed at John Kerry Speech...
- Thread starter Cruentus
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What if the rules are designed so that they protect people who have done something bad from facing the music? What if the people who have done wrong make the rules?
Other people have tried far more civil methods and have had to face only unsatisfactory answers and dodges. Where is the line where civil disobedience becomes a neccesity?
Is a person engaging in civil disobedience a "real" criminal or a "technical" criminal? Some people will see no difference, but I do. As a person whose engaged in civil disobedience in the past and who got a lump and a ride to jail, I tend to see a big difference.
I don't think this tangent is off topic at all by the way...:asian:
Cruentus, I think the fact that you would compare someone engaging in civil disobedience to someone annoying you by cutting in like or being rude to a waitress proves my point. CD can make everyone uncomfortable, but sometimes it is vital for our country. And we need to learn how to just get over those feelings.
Check this out...
Are these people just making asses of themselves? I'm sure they are disrupting a lot of people's lives...
Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoureau
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Cruentus
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I enjoy reading Thoureau, so thanks for the link.
See, I think that comparing this student to civil rights activists is more than way off base, as I think it is actually disrespectful to those civil rights activists who had no other choice but to take drastic measures. I think that comparing him to an ******* who cuts in line is far more fitting.
I am of the opinion that drastic measures like protesting or sit-ins should be a last resort for those who have no voice or medium, and who's voice has been logistically and physically oppressed. There was a time when African Americans weren't allowed to even speak of certain things in a public forum (lest they get physically hurt or prosecuted), let alone write a news article or go on the radio and talk about civil rights issues. So marching and protesting at that time made sense, because there was no other more effective choice.
That is not the case with this student. This student is not oppressed. He has a ton of different medium ranging from internet to news sources to radio and TV if they will have him (and I am sure that there are student radio shows who would hear him). And, there are a ton of people out there who hold similar views that this student has, but they do more effective things, and choose not to be inconsiderate to others (example: the BOOK that the student himself referenced).
This student is not oppressed, and in need to be "Civilly Disobediant." And not that I think that this is your intent, but if one honestly compares this ******* to civil rights activists during that movement, then I think that is really being disrespectful to those who were ACTUALLY OPPRESSED and had to resort to drastic measures because of it.
How often do people really have the chance to question our public officials? How often do we get the chance to question them AND actually debate their responses? How often do the people REALLY get a chance to hold a politician accountable for mistakes they made? Guess what, I'm having a hard time even finding one instance where all of this is even possible. And if you try to do ANYTHING resembling what I wrote above, you get hauled away by the police and charged with anything they can get you on.
What isn't oppressive about that?
I see plenty of reason for some civil disobedience...
The civil rights movement dealt in large part with voter discrepencies. So do the issues that this person brought up. And guess what? The people in the pictures and this guy are fighting for the very same people's right to vote and have their vote counted.
What isn't oppressive about that?
I see plenty of reason for some civil disobedience...
The civil rights movement dealt in large part with voter discrepencies. So do the issues that this person brought up. And guess what? The people in the pictures and this guy are fighting for the very same people's right to vote and have their vote counted.
Blotan Hunka
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Ther HAS to be a conspiracy coming up soon. I can almost smell it. Just because some kook thinks Kerry was part of some Bush re-election plot (with a Skull and Bones connection) doesnt qualify for a sit-in.
Do we have put up with every street corner and Starbucks being blocked by protesters? Because there is a wingnut for every cause out there. let em pedal their views on every newspaper, NPR station, website etc that they want. Stand on a soapbox on the public square with a placard. This guys 1st amendment right were not violated. This guy had his chance and probably would have been able to ask his question if he had acted like an adult instead of going off on a rant till it got to the point that he was ejected. Every forum has its rules. If you want to push em be ready to accept the consequences.
Do we have put up with every street corner and Starbucks being blocked by protesters? Because there is a wingnut for every cause out there. let em pedal their views on every newspaper, NPR station, website etc that they want. Stand on a soapbox on the public square with a placard. This guys 1st amendment right were not violated. This guy had his chance and probably would have been able to ask his question if he had acted like an adult instead of going off on a rant till it got to the point that he was ejected. Every forum has its rules. If you want to push em be ready to accept the consequences.
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Cruentus
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Too late; the weirdo's have been all over it since before I posted this thread:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2007/210907_b_brutality.htm
Blotan Hunka
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I should have known. Sometimes I dont know why I bother with this stuff. Its the same argument over different topics with the same people and personality types. I must be addicted or more bored than I realize. :shrug:
Sometimes I get really pissed about stuff like this. Certain people take this or that and make it crazy and now no one takes anything that might have a shred of truth seriously. Things really happened back in 2004 in regards to the accuracy of our elections. Things that prompted me to organize a citizens group to help monitor our elections in 2006. I think that Kerry's got some 'splainin' to do...
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Cruentus
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Your not the only one who gets pissed off about stuff like this.
The problem that I have is that many people don't look at this stuff in a logical fashion. What people tend to do is develop a particular world view, then analyze incidents through those goggles, refusing to believe anything that doesn't fit into their particular worldview despite what evidence and facts speak to the contrary.
So, if one believes (for example) that there is a deep underground conspiracy with "Skull and Bones" and secret societies at the core and that the last election was a fabrication put on by these elitists with John Kerry in full participation, then one might tend to think that this student was put down by tazer for the type of "questions" he was asking (that might otherwise blow the lid off the "conspiracy"). This is despite all the evidence that shows that this kid was tazed for nothing more then his behavior, having nothing to do with his questions or the content of what he was saying.
Although more socially exceptable, this is also no different (to provide another example) then people who believe that our 1st amendment rights are under attack by the religious right and the Bush administration, and therefore this students tazing is yet another example of someones freedom of speech being violated. This is despite all of the evidence that shows that this had nothing to do with freedom of speech, and everything to do with the students civil disobediance and borderline violent behavior.
Some of us wish that people would simply look at the evidence for what it is, think logically, and to seek truth for the sake of itself rather then trying to support an agenda...
C.
Have there been multiple sorts of problems with our election system over the past several years? Sure. Was there some sort of nationwide plot to disenfranchise any voters? No. As with many of the various "vast conspiracy" theories, they fail on the simple fact that people don't keep secrets well. Yes, we landed on the Moon. We did it as a political and publicity stunt, so space exploration and development languished for decades. Did Lee Harvey Oswald really kill Kennedy? Yep. And, almost certainly, on his own, for his own reasons. (Of course, there's a whold 'nother idea if you watched the series Dark Skies.)
It's very simple. Apathy. Too few people bother to vote or participate in the system, at any level. They'll ***** and moan -- but did they bother to vote? Nope, they were too busy. Or too distracted. Or decided to listen to the blowhards that told them their votes didn't matter.
But that's beside the point, here. This idiot kid didn't want to play by the rules of the forum. He was given time (I tried to watch the clock in one version, that started with his question, and came up with something around 2 minutes; he was given more than a minute AFTER being asked to sit down.) to ask his question; he was asked to sit down, and he chose a pattern of events that led to his getting Tased. He's more than welcome to bring up his points; they may well be valid. But he's got to do it in the appropriate manner and forum. You want to ask President Bush a question... do it in the right place and time. Climb the fence around the White House, and you won't even get to knock on the door.
People are looking to blame the cops; they're looking to blame Senator Kerry's handlers, or Senator Kerry himself, or anyone else EXCEPT this kid. It's really no different than trying to blame the cops for a high speed pursuit that ends in a crash; they didn't make the idiot break the law. If this kid had simply tried to ask his question, even refused to be quiet till the cops frog-marched him out, he'd have brought his supposed question to the front. Instead, his point gets lost in his stupidity.
It's very simple. Apathy. Too few people bother to vote or participate in the system, at any level. They'll ***** and moan -- but did they bother to vote? Nope, they were too busy. Or too distracted. Or decided to listen to the blowhards that told them their votes didn't matter.
But that's beside the point, here. This idiot kid didn't want to play by the rules of the forum. He was given time (I tried to watch the clock in one version, that started with his question, and came up with something around 2 minutes; he was given more than a minute AFTER being asked to sit down.) to ask his question; he was asked to sit down, and he chose a pattern of events that led to his getting Tased. He's more than welcome to bring up his points; they may well be valid. But he's got to do it in the appropriate manner and forum. You want to ask President Bush a question... do it in the right place and time. Climb the fence around the White House, and you won't even get to knock on the door.
People are looking to blame the cops; they're looking to blame Senator Kerry's handlers, or Senator Kerry himself, or anyone else EXCEPT this kid. It's really no different than trying to blame the cops for a high speed pursuit that ends in a crash; they didn't make the idiot break the law. If this kid had simply tried to ask his question, even refused to be quiet till the cops frog-marched him out, he'd have brought his supposed question to the front. Instead, his point gets lost in his stupidity.
Bravo sir, very well said.
How sure are you about this?
RFK jr Was the 2004 Election Stolen?
Imagine if you were one of the people standing for 10 hours in the rain because Secratary of State Blackwell deliberately shorted your polling place with voting machines. Only to watch Senator Kerry roll over without hardly making an effort to investigate a single instance of disenfranchisement. I'd imagine that that'd piss a lot of people off.
Off Topic. Do you really think Oswald shot Kennedy?
Quick question. Who here has engaged in civil disobedience of any kind? Have you ever been arrested for it?
Blotan Hunka
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Case in point.
Like I said before, it can go both ways.
Blotan Hunka
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Dont take this the wrong way upnorth, you are one of the most entertaining guys around here to debate/argue with and I kinda enjoy it, but is there a conspiracy out there you DONT believe?
Or do you do it for the fun factor?
Or do you do it for the fun factor?
Some of it is for the fun factor, but some I think have more merit then others...
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