No ID - College Student Tazed - 3 Times

[Rich Parsons]

The 2 situations are different, in the following:

In the actual situation, the person was reported by several witnesses to be in the process of complying when he was assaulted by the police.

In your hypothetical situation, the police would be seeking to establish if the person did belong there. If the person could not present ID in this case, there are simple ways to verify ID. If the person says his name is "john smith", and the address is 25 mockingbird lane, the police can run his non-existant ID based on other factors, which would in most cases be tied in to the ID he cannot present, to check. They can query their database which should contain a physical description of Mr Smith, and other identifying information. My drivers license has my hair, and eye color, birthdate, and other bits that a casual criminal would not have. One would expect that anyone they give a gun and badge to, would understand how to ask for a name and call in an ID check.

Bob,

In many situations the witnesses were friends or plants of thsoe who came to fight me or challenge me or try to hurt me. So while this looks bad up front, I would still want to see an investigation, and see the relationship between the witnesses and the person who caused this event.

And yes, If you can question the policies, cannot I question if the witnesses are not biased?

 

[Drac]

This prolonged and cruel assault on a student is outrageous and the officers involved should be dismissed.

Are you a cop???

 

[Rich Parsons]

So, what you are saying is, as long as you do whatever the person with the taser and badge says, you should be ok?

That electric shocks are a justified response to the spoken word?


I don't believe electric shocks, or pepper spray, or swung batons are a justified response to spoken words. Swung fists, thrown rocks, etc, most likely. But when saying "no" to a LEO earns an automatic electrocution or face full of capsayin, I think there is a problem in the system, yes. This particular situation deals with a police force with a long history of abuse and physical attacks on people, far exceeding acceptable response.

According to TheRegister:
"According to a report on NBC4.tv, he was given "a citation for obstruction/delay of a peace officer in the performance of duty and then released from custody". A UCLA police sergeant who saw Tabatabainejad after the incident claimed he had not suffered serious injury as a result of the tasering. He said: "If he was able to walk out of here, I think he was OK.""

"If he was able to walk out of here, I think he was OK."?????
I walked away from 2 car accidents. I wasn't ok. Nice to see though that the UCLA Police are also trained medical personel too.

Bob,

Yes the guy with the badge, can shot you by mistake, and or abuse of power. It sucks. I hate it. I think it sucks and should not be. But once shot you are still shot. So clubs were used. This was seen as excessive force so Tazers are used now, and as others have stated less lethal would be better terminology, but in either case, like I Said and my lawyer told me, once the police respond it is useless to argue with them. Just wait for your day in court.

As to the walking wounded, yes endorphines make up for a lot.

 

[michaeledward]

Rich Parsons ... with four posts to reply too, this could be a confusing response. Bear with me.

Sometimes this medium does a poor job of conveying tone; Where sarcasm and hyperbole is in place. You are at least one post late in determining the 'silly' quotient in my posts. My responses to Technopunk / Cryozombie ... whatever descended into hyperbole and sarcasm earlier than you think. When I make a statement about closing libraries ... rest assured it is sarcasm driven by frustration. Not about not making or winning my point, but about the terms demanded by the points of others.

As I read it, Technopunk is putting forth the proposition that when a badged officer arrives on the scene that we must all immediately become subservient to them. That to me, is an abhorent idea.

I'm wondering when the United States of America became a 'Police State'.

I am not arguing that the student was in the right, nor that the school is not able to set policies and have the expectation that those policies be followed. But what we are talking about is a student who does not have an ID on him. And THIS is the justification for tazing the student? All arguments flow from this. My argument is that the law and order mentality has brought a response that is out of proportion with the infraction.

I guess we truly are not a free society if we must have the correct government sanctioned paperwork to exist. I graduated from college in 1986. I honestly have no recollection of a college ID. I quite probably had one, but I don't ever remember having one, nor where it was used.

Yes, the use of the term 'Papers', in quotes, is designed to represtent all of the bad connotations of all the governments that my country has fought against to spread democracy and freedom. Remember, we not only defeated Nazi Germany, but we also worked for a half of century to bring down communist governments.

I believe that if we demand possession of government issued documentation for doing our daily activities, we, as a nation, are becoming the thing that we have worked so hard to prevent and destroy.

President Bush, in his second Inagural Address told us "There is no justice without freedom".

This has nothing to do with moral high ground. It has to do with basics civics. What were the principles upon which this country was founded.

Apparently, we have been conditioned to think that every person is a bad person. Always we must be on highest alert. Our reactions to even the most minor infraction must be severe. To inflict Punishment and to Teach lessons to those standing by.

Rich Parsons ... In one post, I asked for someone to explain if this could be not motived by the students religion. Looking back, that is a poor choice. I should have directed it to ethnicity, rather than religion. We have no idea about the students faith, but we do know he is of middleeastern heritage.

When I put forth that argument, I can not help but wonder if someone like myself, a caucasion of European descent, behaving in the same manner, would have received the tazer blasts. Do you believe that caucasions are well behaved, and only african americans and middle easterners and hispanics misbehave? Why don't we read about people like me being tazed or trampled with horses or beat with clubs?

There is probably much more that deserves response, but this has probably already confused the issue too much.

Really ... the kid didn't have his ID. Being a Jerk is not a crime. But what we are talking about is repeated tazer strikes because he did not have is 'PAPERS' ....

Who needs civil liberties. Just the ID.

 

[Rich Parsons]

michaeledward,

Back in 1984 through 1990 I could not get into and use a computer unless I presented my ID for them to know where I was and on which station. In case of any damage to the unit, or the requirement to get a print out, (* to stop people from taking others programs or papers to copy from *) and also for security as some machines such as the 8086 and the later the 80286 were limited to certain clases that required the computing power.

The ID on a college is very important.

While being a student member of the government, I had to follow up with someone who filed a complaint. They said they were being stalked by a none student upon the campus. Someone who went out and bought a backpack and then some freshman class books and then proceded to follow women to class to and to follow them home. When appraoched on this, he had no ID. He was never registered at the university or any of the other local colleges. This was a security risk for the students. An actual in their face of being assualted and being attacked and possible being raped.

If this was your daughter or wife or niece who was followed or attacked, would you not be outraged with the Univeristy for not taking the simpliest precautions for thier safety?

We may have failed as a society, yet I go back to people not taking responsibility for themselves. In a perfect world there would be no need for any ID's. In a perfect world there would be no need to protect ourselves or worry about the protection of others.

I still say that until a detailed investigation with full data, the event was in line with the usage as long as they were properly trained in the usage of Tazer's and it was within their training usage. Until I hear more about what happened before the video I have to think it was fine, as long as procedure was followed. If evidence comes about that procedure was not followed then I will review that data and make another opinion.

Oh wait I forgot something.

The guy who was asked for his ID was Black/African American, and he said it was all about discrimination against the Black Man.

This was not the case. He was not a student. That was the issue.

 

[michaeledward]

Michael,

As I have stated to me it looks like both you and John are the With us or against us.

There are others on this thread who are speculating improper force, or the change in a policy, or that something might be wrong, but they present it as such which is their opinion or that they dislike it and want to change it versus you are all wrong for thinking like this and it was wrong to have such a device and all who agree with this usage are Nazi's or looking for a government to come into their home and take them away.

Let me ask some qustions about policy what is the policy of the police department?

What is the usage of force?

Are they required to use the tazer versus a club because of the previous issues?

Are there issues with safety of someone might have AIDs or Hepatitus or some other blood born illness?

If the person left and walked out side the computer room to the hallway it would have gone far to show is desire to leave peascefully, instead he was inside making a protest, where someone has a video, and the video is dropped when ever someone of authority comes by. Like they knew they were not supposed to be taping it. Yet, instead the video hits the internet in hours and starts to get the media and other people upset.

MR. PARSONS ....

This is the third time in this thread that you have accused me of bringing 'NAZI's into this thread. I have prompted you once on this issue.

I have just posted response to indicate that there are many governments that required papers ... and I was indeed attempting to draw those connotations.

I have not mentioned Nazis, except in response to your accusations. There are enough other connotations which can be equally valid.

Please Stop putting words in my mouth.

Mike Atkinson

 

[michaeledward]

If the person left and walked out side the computer room to the hallway it would have gone far to show is desire to leave peascefully, instead he was inside making a protest, where someone has a video, and the video is dropped when ever someone of authority comes by. Like they knew they were not supposed to be taping it. Yet, instead the video hits the internet in hours and starts to get the media and other people upset.

Rich Parsons, your continued inferences to a co-conspirator video taping this altercation has been adquately explained, and refuted. It seems that you are displaying willful ignorance on the technology. You seem to be making a choice to believe that college students do not have video
capable cell phones. I suggest a visit to your local mall.

 

[michaeledward]

This quote is from the first story I read on this incident, several days ago. It is the genesis of my post. It is an accurate description of all the posts I have made on this thread.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larisa-alexandrovna/freedom-is_b_34362.html

when a piece of paper with your name on it - laminated or otherwise - becomes more important than your whole body, your Constitutional rights, and your basic human rights, then that piece of paper - laminated or otherwise - needs to be returned to its master as a "thanks but no thanks" gesture.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich Parsons ... with four posts to reply too, this could be a confusing response. Bear with me.

Sometimes this medium does a poor job of conveying tone; Where sarcasm and hyperbole is in place. You are at least one post late in determining the 'silly' quotient in my posts. My responses to Technopunk / Cryozombie ... whatever descended into hyperbole and sarcasm earlier than you think. When I make a statement about closing libraries ... rest assured it is sarcasm driven by frustration. Not about not making or winning my point, but about the terms demanded by the points of others.

As I read it, Technopunk is putting forth the proposition that when a badged officer arrives on the scene that we must all immediately become subservient to them. That to me, is an abhorent idea.

I'm wondering when the United States of America became a 'Police State'.

I am not arguing that the student was in the right, nor that the school is not able to set policies and have the expectation that those policies be followed. But what we are talking about is a student who does not have an ID on him. And THIS is the justification for tazing the student? All arguments flow from this. My argument is that the law and order mentality has brought a response that is out of proportion with the infraction.

I guess we truly are not a free society if we must have the correct government sanctioned paperwork to exist. I graduated from college in 1986. I honestly have no recollection of a college ID. I quite probably had one, but I don't ever remember having one, nor where it was used.

Yes, the use of the term 'Papers', in quotes, is designed to represtent all of the bad connotations of all the governments that my country has fought against to spread democracy and freedom. Remember, we not only defeated Nazi Germany, but we also worked for a half of century to bring down communist governments.

I believe that if we demand possession of government issued documentation for doing our daily activities, we, as a nation, are becoming the thing that we have worked so hard to prevent and destroy.

President Bush, in his second Inagural Address told us "There is no justice without freedom".

This has nothing to do with moral high ground. It has to do with basics civics. What were the principles upon which this country was founded.

Apparently, we have been conditioned to think that every person is a bad person. Always we must be on highest alert. Our reactions to even the most minor infraction must be severe. To inflict Punishment and to Teach lessons to those standing by.

Rich Parsons ... In one post, I asked for someone to explain if this could be not motived by the students religion. Looking back, that is a poor choice. I should have directed it to ethnicity, rather than religion. We have no idea about the students faith, but we do know he is of middleeastern heritage.

When I put forth that argument, I can not help but wonder if someone like myself, a caucasion of European descent, behaving in the same manner, would have received the tazer blasts. Do you believe that caucasions are well behaved, and only african americans and middle easterners and hispanics misbehave? Why don't we read about people like me being tazed or trampled with horses or beat with clubs?

There is probably much more that deserves response, but this has probably already confused the issue too much.

Really ... the kid didn't have his ID. Being a Jerk is not a crime. But what we are talking about is repeated tazer strikes because he did not have is 'PAPERS' ....

Who needs civil liberties. Just the ID.

michaeledward,

Thank you for the reply. Sarcasm is great. But to those who do not know you from here and or might be a first time reader could have read it the way I presented. Thank you for your follow up.

I agree the ethnicity could have been an issue.

But once again when I have told people about my border crossings, no one here took up arms and wanted to have the US border patrol investgated for profiling me based upon my dark complexion, and in some cases jokes were made about it. Why is ok for me to be profiled while it is nto for this guy?


As to the Police state, I agree we are and I absolutely hate it. I think the Home Land Security Act has taken too much from us and I have been saying this since 2001. Recent changes to another act that now allows the President to declare martial law and send it into a single person's home, or neighborhood or city or state, and has authority to do such is horrible in my mind.

I called my reps in congress and e-mailed them.

I voted against anyone currently in congress, even though some of my third party votes may not have cast a winning vote I cast my vote to my conscious and I feel great by it. I have shown that there is a movement of those who vote who are looking to move away form this two party not with us against us mentality.

I think it is horrible where this country is.

I see no answer away from an ID.

I have been told by my German friends that in 2007 all external Passports will have to be created and have a computer chip in them to help against the forgery and entry into the USA. The USA will also be issue new Passports with such a device. Existing ones are good until they expire.


As to the issue of Whites/Caucasions versus the minorities, I could say that you know to what ground people will go to conquer a nation and steal a nation and realize this and go with the flow. I could say that it is not news unless it is something about us ver them. I could say that as Time MAgazine has stated in the October 30th issue of 2006, the stats fare from 2004:

80.1 % Caucasion
12.8 % Black
4.4 % Asian
1.6 % Multiple Races
1.0 % Native American and Alaska Native
0.2 % Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander

With another minority being Hispanic made up of all races mentioned above
that is 14.8 % of the population. The major portion of the Hispanic population is from Caucasion decent.

So, I could say that it is news as it is a minority issue, and this country's news media is all about minority conflict and conflict in general.

I could say it is actual racism, or discrimination.

I could say and more than like believe it is not an overt issue of discrimination but an issue of economics and where people live and how much money they make.

Like I said above, not many were concerned about me, being caucasion and what I get when I go through security or go through an airport. It is not news. Just a mistaken profile and I have been told to live with it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich Parsons, your continued inferences to a co-conspirator video taping this altercation has been adquately explained, and refuted. It seems that you are displaying willful ignorance on the technology. You seem to be making a choice to believe that college students do not have video
capable cell phones. I suggest a visit to your local mall.

I accept they have video capable cell phones.

But does my opinion on this issue have any less validity then anyone else's conjecture?

Other people are allowed to speculate and make their desires and cast shadows, but I am not?

Thank you sir.

 

[Rich Parsons]

MR. PARSONS ....

This is the third time in this thread that you have accused me of bringing 'NAZI's into this thread. I have prompted you once on this issue.

I have just posted response to indicate that there are many governments that required papers ... and I was indeed attempting to draw those connotations.

I have not mentioned Nazis, except in response to your accusations. There are enough other connotations which can be equally valid.

Please Stop putting words in my mouth.

Mike Atkinson

Mr Atkinson,

You are allowed to make conjecture, and I am not allowed to make conjecture about your comments?

Thank you I know understand more.

 

[Rich Parsons]

This quote is from the first story I read on this incident, several days ago. It is the genesis of my post. It is an accurate description of all the posts I have made on this thread.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larisa-alexandrovna/freedom-is_b_34362.html

While I agree it sucks that this seems to be the case.

While I agree that the U.S. Constitution has been shredded in my opinion.

The issue is that I see people making comments without facts.

I see people making agendas against people (* police, and while I have nothing for and nothing against the police as I have meet and dealt with both good and bad *), and not agendas against the government of the politicians who voted away mine and your's rights.

 

[Lisa]

MODERATOR NOTE:

ATTENTION EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS THREAD:

This thread has been the subject of multiple RTM's to the moderating team. There is excellent conversation and debate going on and I would hate to see action against anyone involved in the thread or have this thread closed.

So, Please keep the conversation polite and respectful. Please use the RTM button if you feel you are being unjustly accused and ridiculed and Please feel free to use the ignore feature to ignore other members, this can be found in their profile.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator

 

[MJS]

This prolonged and cruel assault on a student is outrageous and the officers involved should be dismissed.

I suppose if you saw 3 cops piled on top of a suspect, you'd think that was an assault too? See, this is the problem...people tend to not realize that when someone is resisting, the cops need to take it to the next level. If that means bringing someone down, putting their knee on their back or the back of their head to keep them down, then so be it. Maybe if the guy wasn't resisting he wouldn't end up on the ground in the first place!

Mike

 

[MJS]

So Let me see if I have this clear.

Not having ID is now a Criminal Offense?

I dont think its criminal, but if its policy, then it needs to be shown upon asking for it.

Tazering a prone, handcuffed, non-combative individual is acceptable behavior for a Law Enforcement Officer?

No, that is not acceptable, if he is no longer resisting. If he is still fighting, while cuffed, then I'd say yes, the taser, OC, etc., is within their right to use.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I suppose if you saw 3 cops piled on top of a suspect, you'd think that was an assault too? See, this is the problem...people tend to not realize that when someone is resisting, the cops need to take it to the next level. If that means bringing someone down, putting their knee on their back or the back of their head to keep them down, then so be it. Maybe if the guy wasn't resisting he wouldn't end up on the ground in the first place!

Mike

Mike,

I think this hits what is my problem with this thread. Some people are screaming violation of rights. Yet they are willing to condemn and convict officers without evidence or a trial which is also a violation fo their rights.

If the points in my opinion were presented in a manner such as to leave doubt, without using all negative terms and leading people to draw conclusions to get people upset and for them to take it the next level, while they sit back and say they are innocent for they have not done wrong. To me it is similiar to insighting a riot, or yelling fire in a movie theater.

Those that ask questions, are fine. Those that express their opinions and state they are opinions is great. But those that express their opinions as fact and also as the only logical solution, are what I have problems with. (* not everyone or anyone specific not even sure if I can point to specific post here but in general these topics turn into this type of arguement. *)

But as this thread has been warned, and I expect that some of if not many of the reported posts may have been directed at my posts; I have decided that I will make this my last post. If anyone wants to have me read their post send me a message.

If anyone wants to give me feedback positive or negative feel free, as I am no longer an admin here and capable of seeing who gave me the feedback.

Enjoy your discussions.
:asian:

 

[michaeledward]

I suppose if you saw 3 cops piled on top of a suspect, you'd think that was an assault too? See, this is the problem...people tend to not realize that when someone is resisting, the cops need to take it to the next level. If that means bringing someone down, putting their knee on their back or the back of their head to keep them down, then so be it. Maybe if the guy wasn't resisting he wouldn't end up on the ground in the first place!

Mike

An issue that seems not to have been addressed in this thread, but that I think could be a valid concern, and possibly a motivation for the police in this thread. The police were outnumbered by the students.

Actually, I guess it has been addressed, where one officer apparently threatened to taze a bystander ... I did not hear that on the tape ... but I think it has been referenced here.

There were three or four police officers at the scene, and quite a few more students than that. Seems to me, that would be a very stressful environment for the police. If this incident escalated, if students decided to come to the aid of their tazed colleague. (Police reports indicate the student attempted to incite others - however witness statements and video do not confirm this, according to stories).

What if . . . The students decided to assist the student on the ground?

I have to imagine the police officers were far more worried, and mindful of that possibility. And I wonder what impact it had on their behavior choices.


I will say this. I was raised with the utmost respect for police. Some state troopers in Massachusetts might be able to tell you about how that respect was demonstrated. But the law enforcment officers that post on this board, have done many things that have caused me to downgrade the level of respect those officers receive. It's sad. I think.

 

[michaeledward]

Mr Atkinson,

You are allowed to make conjecture, and I am not allowed to make conjecture about your comments?

Thank you I know understand more.

You can certainly interpret my comments in any way you wish, Mr. Parsons. But do not ascribe to me words that I have not used. They are your interpretations.

Michael

 

[Drac]

I suppose if you saw 3 cops piled on top of a suspect, you'd think that was an assault too? See, this is the problem...people tend to not realize that when someone is resisting, the cops need to take it to the next level. If that means bringing someone down, putting their knee on their back or the back of their head to keep them down, then so be it

Had to arrest a skinny black 19 yr old last week that had been smoking wet cigarettes..He decided that HE WASN'T going to jail and started resisting..He fought 3 BIG cops...Someone who had not been there from the beginning would have drawn the wrong conclusions..Did I mention that he was attempting to gain entry into an elderly female car WHILE she was sitting at a traffic light and steal her purse by punching the window with his fist???

Maybe if the guy wasn't resisting he wouldn't end up on the ground in the first place

That would make too much bloody sense..It's EASIER for some individulas to to yell and scream and fight...Go figure...

Mike[/quote]

 

[fireman00]

If you are pulled over for speeding and you are asked for your license, registration and insurance can you tell the officer no thanks then drive away?

If you are asked to show ID before boarding a plan and refuse do you think you'll make it on the plane?

When you go to a bank to cash a check and you're asked for photo ID do you think they'll cash it when you refuse to provide an ID?

Most all major businesses now use magnetic badges to allow employees access to/ from office buildings. Parking passes are needed to acces parking garages and yes, student IDs now fall into the same categor... I was taking classes 10 years ago at Fairly Dickenson University and I was issued a photo ID and required to show it to gain access to particular areas of the campus.

Mr. Tabatabainejad was asked to show his ID, for whatever reason, and he felt that it was his right to disobey this request. He also felt it was his right to refuse to leave the library when asked. He also felt that it was his right to call for an impromptu student demonstration against what he felt to be inappropriate behavior of the campus police. He felt it was time to make a statement; be it discrimination against Arab Americans or whatever and he was called on it.

All he had to do was show his ID or explain to the officers that he didn't have it with him but that he'd get it.

As for the folks that feel we live in a police state or all the rights that we've given up - please let me know what you haven't been able to do since 2003 that you could do prior to '01?