United Martial Artists for Christ

[Flying Crane]

At a hospital I worked at there was an employee (housekeeper) who was also an aspiring minister....he decided he would help the patients by praying for them...he decided to start in ICU....he walked in and the nurses thought he was there to clean the rooms....well..... imagine waking up, in the Intensive Care Unit, with some person praying over you....scared the living daylights out of a rather sick patient and the nurses found out when the patient hit the call light asking for help......and of course was completely convinced that the doctors, and nurses, were hiding something from them as it applied to their condition..... otherwise why would there be a guy praying for them in their room.....our would be minister got in heaps of trouble over that.

Jeezuz. Just...jeezuz.

 

[Flying Crane]

Huh. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody ever does.

 

[Buka]

Pray for me, fellas'.

Forgot to shut off my alarm clock this morning, threw a pillow at it when it went off. Good thing I missed, mighta' went straight to hell.

Pray for me, fellas'.

 

[TSDTexan]

I know some may feel that the Christian judges others, after single-ing them out for the prayers etc. Thats not how I think.

The bible states that every human sins, that we all rebel against God... so I as a follower the doctrine of sola scriptura, and view myself as worse than others.

Now its the bible that makes the case thar we are all sinners, and all of us are in need of mercy from God.

But most will reject God's offer of pardon.

I don't need to examine your life to see what type of sinner a person is. If their human... that is enough for me.

I don't judge. Thats God's job. As a Christian my role is like a hostage negotiater trying to offer terms of peace, & to help avoid a person from going to God's courtroom of justice.

Here is picture to help illustrate.

 

[drop bear]

I know some may feel that the Christian judges others, after single-ing them out for the prayers etc. Thats not how I think.

The bible states that every human sins, that we all rebel against God... so I as a follower the doctrine of sola scriptura, and view myself as worse than others.

Now its the bible that makes the case thar we are all sinners, and all of us are in need of mercy from God.

But most will reject God's offer of pardon.

I don't need to examine your life to see what type of sinner a person is. If their human... that is enough for me.

I don't judge. Thats God's job. As a Christian my role is like a hostage negotiater trying to offer terms of peace, & to help avoid a person from going to God's courtroom of justice.

Here is picture to help illustrate.

Nope. Doesn't work like that.

Your religion still has to be evidence based not dogma based.

So pretend it is martial art. You are trying to convince people your method is sound because barry the founder who is awesome said it works.

So the rest of us go OK. you show us how great your method is.

And you either do.

Or you punk out.

Same with religion. You say your way is better. You are the example of that. Not the book and not god.

That is how you inspire people to become better people.

 

[TSDTexan]

Nope. Doesn't work like that.

Your religion still has to be evidence based not dogma based.

So pretend it is martial art. You are trying to convince people your method is sound because barry the founder who is awesome said it works.

So the rest of us go OK. you show us how great your method is.

And you either do.

Or you punk out.

Same with religion. You say your way is better. You are the example of that. Not the book and not god.

That is how you inspire people to become better people.

Negative.

Not all religions are goal oriented towards inspiring people to becoming better.

That is a side affect of following Christ.
But it is not the objective of being an adherent.

The Gospel is a transaction of faith. The faith comes by hearing the Word, and then exercising trust or belief in what has been spoken with regard to it.

The historical evidence of christianity is dispite being killed wholesale, by the tens of thousands by the Roman Empire... the greater the persecution the greater the growth of the faith.

Why? Because Christ was bodily raised ffrom the dead, as he foretold that he would be.

He promises forgiveness for all who put their trust in him. He promises that at his return, all of his followers will also be raised from the dead, with new bodies that will never age, become sick or die.

He offers the end of death and eternal life as a reward for trusting in him.

The burden of guilt and shame for living in rebellion against God, and the consequence of sin, having been forgiven.... leads to a sense of utmost gratitude.

This thankfulness at having a debt paid, which could never otherwise be discharged leads to a life marked by a profound change.

A desire to please God who instructs His people to love others, as much as they love themselves.

Such Christians who become awakened to their freedom from God's judgment have built more schools, hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens and fought to abolish slavery than any other group in history.

That is historically verifiable.

There are countless scores of people who were set free from addictions, and broken lives. God does this kind of stuff all the time..
These kinds of events are valid reasons.


Perhaps the most important reason to become a Christian would be so that you escape the righteous judgment of God and spend eternity with him. This can only be accomplished by trusting in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Without Jesus, no one would ever have any hope of entering into the presence of God.

After all, God is perfect and holy; and we are not.

He must judge those who rebel against him. If he did not, he would be approving evil.

Evil is doing such things as lying, stealing, etc.

If you have ever lied or stolen, then you are a liar and a thief.

God cannot let liars and thieves enter heaven. Because He is just.

So, in order to escape his righteous judgment it is necessary to trust God, and the means of deliverance he has provided is in the person of Christ. So, being delivered from judgment is a great reason.


Other reasons...
You can experience greater freedom from guilt and shame.

We are all imperfect, and we all make mistakes of varying degrees.

Some of us have done some very bad things; so bad that when we remember them, we feel real guilt and real shame.

But when we become a Christian, we trust that Christ has forgiven us of all the evil that we have done. If he can forgive us, then we can be set free.

The experiencing of God's presence...

In addition, being a Christian means you will experience the presence of God in your life.

It does not mean that everything will automatically get better and all your problems will go away.



However, things usually get better when you follow God's word and do what is right. He rewards those who seek him (Luke 6:23; Colossians 3:24; Hebrews 11:6), and he does want good for us.

 

[drop bear]

Negative.

Not all religions are goal oriented towards inspiring people to becoming better.

Yeah but all the good ones are.

 

[TSDTexan]

Yeah but all the good ones are.

Your claim is subjective. It it not objectively true.

 

[Flying Crane]

I know some may feel that the Christian judges others, after single-ing them out for the prayers etc. Thats not how I think.

The bible states that every human sins, that we all rebel against God... so I as a follower the doctrine of sola scriptura, and view myself as worse than others.

Now its the bible that makes the case thar we are all sinners, and all of us are in need of mercy from God.

But most will reject God's offer of pardon.

I don't need to examine your life to see what type of sinner a person is. If their human... that is enough for me.

I don't judge. Thats God's job. As a Christian my role is like a hostage negotiater trying to offer terms of peace, & to help avoid a person from going to God's courtroom of justice.

Here is picture to help illustrate.

I am curious to know how you would respond if someone told you that they would pray to Allah for you, that he lift the blinders from your eyes so you will see that Islam is the only true path, and all others are false and lead to hell. They are only trying to help you, to save you from your own wrong decisions.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, I have a chance to get back to this, and there's a number of things that I feel need to be clarified... mainly as I feel most are coming at this from exactly the wrong cultural perspective, and are missing what is actually being said.

But first...

It's possible that it's because your analogies kind of suck. Nah. You're right. It couldn't be you. You use so many words and speak with such authority, it would be inconceivable.

Grow up, Steve. Frankly, you have, yet again, missed the point, and not understood the analogy, as you can't grasp the actual message in the first place. But how about you simply ask for clarification instead of being, well, you?

So then... yeah. You were talking about karate. Other stuff, too. But yeah. Karate.

Nice of you to think you understand what my understanding of Japanese arts are, Steve, but no, karate was folded into what I was talking about, but nowhere near to the degree of Aikido and Judo (and other definitively Japanese arts... Karate is more influenced by Taoism than Shinto, as it's more derived from Chinese approaches, and the art is a recent transplant into Japan, rather than being an expression of the Japanese culture itself). So no, not karate in that sense.

Okay. So, broad strokes here, are you suggesting that the idea of homage to previous generations is a uniquely Shinto thing, or are you saying that bowing to the picture on the wall before and after each Karate (or whatever) class is uniquely Shinto?

No, you're looking in the wrong direction... I'm not saying it's uniquely Shinto, I'm saying that (in the case of bowing to the front of the dojo) it's specifically Shinto. It's not anything else. It's not "going through the motions"... it's not "a series of actions"... it's not even just a matter of "paying respect"... honestly, it's not even simply "derived from Shinto"... it is Shinto.

Honestly, it tickles my funny bone that you are using a sport analogy. That, with your history of sport vs street vs self defense, your first turn is to a sport analogy.

What are you talking about? Do you get how analogies work? Do you understand that this is nothing to do with that debate/discussion at all?

But, yeah. The sport analogy doesn't work because you are mixing up physical, tangible, demonstrable skill with a strictly spiritual pursuit. A more correct analogy is that karate (or whatever) never applied is like tennis without a racquet. Fighting skills never applied in a fight are like playing Wii tennis. You're going through the motions, but who knows if the skills are transferable?

Again, you're looking at things that aren't a part of this at all... it's got nothing at all to do with "application"... that's a completely different concept and idea... and I have no idea where you got the idea that this is even anything to do with that.

No, it's really not like this. Your analogy is just.. .terrible, Chris. Come on. It's more like a vegetarian eating a tofurkey burger.

No, it's really not. To stretch your incorrect analogy, it's like the vegetarian eating a burger, but trying to tell themselves that it's this tofurkey abomination you describe. They're still eating a burger, no matter what they tell themselves... which is the point.

It's more akin to the Brazilians taking a uniquely Japanese art, discarding the stuff they didn't need and building on what they did. Is BJJ a Japanese art? I'd say that it is not, but it's important to remember that it is derived from Japan.

What?? Steve, this makes no sense, and has nothing to do with the idea that the bowing in a Japanese art is a ritual taken from a native Japanese religious form known as Shinto... I don't even know where to start with the tangents you think you're seeing here...

In the same way, when a Christian celebrates Easter or Christmas, they are celebrating a Christian holiday even if we know that the timing and some of the rituals are of pagan origin.

No, it's not. You're conflating the origins of rituals with the rituals themselves. A Christian following the rituals of Christianity is following the rituals of Christianity... by the same token, a non-Christian following the rituals of Christianity is following the rituals of Christianity... even if they don't personally believe in the tenets or ideals, or even doctrine of the religion itself. This will come up again a few times, by the way...

I'm pretty sure this thread was someone asking about our organization not bowing. That being said we bow in class out of respect. Some pretty funny comments in the thread though.

Hmm... no, the thread wasn't specifically about your organisation bowing or not... there was a side issue of whether or not it was approaching religious reverence (in other arts), but that's something different... that said, you bow in class? Where does that come from? And do you know why it is done (not your own reasons... you've adopted the practices of something else for your own group, but do you understand what those practices are? That's my question here...)?

Very much my opinion on the matter. I am a heathen raised in a family of heathens. But my parents thought it was important that we understand at least some of what most everyone around us believed. So, as a kid, I went to a Catholic school for a few years, as well as a Lutheran school. I participated in the rituals and devotions and prayers, and don't think too much about it one way or the other. While I have no doubt that some of the other kids were actively worshipping, others, like myself, were simply, respectfully participating.

One can go to an Aikido school and mimic the motions out of respect, without moving into the category of worship.

A few things to realise here, though... even if all that you do is "simply mimic the motions", you are still engaging in the religious ritual... if you make the Sign of the Cross, it's a religious gesture/action, even if you aren't Christian yourself... same with any other religious action. And the act of bowing, whether you observe the religious realities of it or not, is a religious ritual.

Secondly, there is a misapplication of terminology here... there isn't a case of "worship" the same way there is in Western religions...

But the larger issue, I think, is one that I believe Chris Parker is trying to raise. Or maybe I don't understand him. But I THINK he's suggesting that if you aren't worshipping and are just going through the motions, you aren't REALLY training in that art. I'm a guy who doesn't like the idea of bowing to O Sensei, and won't do it... is it impossible for me to learn aikido? Seems like Chris Parker is saying yes, I might train something, but it wouldn't be Aikido.

Or maybe I have it all wrong.

Yeah, you have it all wrong.

I'm saying that, no matter what you think you're doing, when you're engaging in the activity of bowing to the kamiza, you are engaging in a Shinto ritual. That's it. If you have a religious issue in engaging in the practices of another religion, be aware of this. You are, whether aware of it or not, engaging in the religious practice of Shinto.

The latter comment (regarding the lack of aspects of a tennis court in playing tennis, which I think is where you got these ideas from) is a little different... what I'm saying there is that if you genuinely remove all of the religious influences from the practice of Japanese martial arts, you end up with a shell of the actual system... as it permeates and influences far more of the system than most realise.

I would argue that it's religious in background. That doesn't mean it's still religious. Much of the "secular" side of Christmas is a hold-over from pagan traditions of the Yule. It's not religious anymore for most people (I certainly have no religious connection to a Christmas tree), though that's where it came from.

No, it's religious in fact... not in background. It is specifically, intentionally, and definitively religious... it has never shied away from that, it has never removed itself from that. It'd be like saying going to Church, and attending Midnight Mass at Christmas is "religious in background", just because not everyone who is there are even Christian (some are there out of a sense of social conformity, some are simply following what their friends or family does, regardless of personal beliefs, and so on)... but the fact remains that it is a religious ceremony/act... as is the bowing to the kamiza in class. Regardless of the individuals personal beliefs.

Oh, and for the record, there isn't really any religious aspect to a Christmas tree... to some of the ornaments adorning it, yeah... but not the tree itself. That comes from something else...

I'd just tell them it's only worship if you're worshiping.

And again, that means something different in a Western sense to what is meant/intended in Eastern philosophies and belief systems.

I have no problem bowing to a picture. It's weird to me - just a different starting ritual than I'm used to - but I've done it when attending seminars at dojos in Ueshiba's Aikido, and when visiting some.

And that's fine... unless you grew up with a lot of these concepts, they can seem very weird, especially to a Western sensibility... however, again, if there are religious concerns, you really should be aware that you'd be participating in a religious act. If you have no religious concerns, of course, it doesn't matter so much.

Remember that many in Japan have Shinto shrines in their own house... they're brought up surrounded by the rituals and trappings of Shinto and Buddhist festivities... the same way we are with Judeo-Christian ones. They are just part of the cultural environment... and have an influence on much of the culture itself, as religion plays a role in moral and ethical guidance for the group as well as the individual.

One of the few times I find myself in complete agreement with you.

Well.... that's nice of you to say... but, reading through your post, I'm not so sure you do agree so much...

I am a Kyu belt within a Okinawan Karatedo, and at the Dojo its very stripped down. Almost Zen in its austerity.

That's a separate thing, really... yes, the design of a dojo is highly influenced by religious buildings and concepts, but the idea of "zen austerity" is something different, and specific to a particular approach to Buddhism... for the record.

But, we have our bows... oh yeah we do.

Okay... so the questions are... what bows do you have? And why do you have them? Where do they come from?

As I am a Christian, but an atypical one at that, I don't feel troubled in my conscience with regard to a juxtaposition of opposing beliefs.

There are none.

Okay, cool. As said, if there aren't any religious concerns, then it's all good.

There are some issues that are not fundamental. And a few that are.

The Trinity, the virgin birth, the sinless life, substituionary death and resurrection, that salvation is a free gift of God, not earned by works...
I will die on that hill, I cannot surrender those things.

Okay. Good example of personal religious expression and belief.

But..

If my school added a cubbyhole shrine with a statue of Buddha, and required me to burn incense to it, and bow before it... I would have to exit from training there.

And this would be a good example of expressing your religious beliefs, and adhering to them. The catch is, in many schools, there is a lot of activity which is the equivalent to this, without people recognising it... I mean, even when there is a little statue, and a bow... people dismiss it as not religious, as it's not part of their religion... which is missing the point... and fairly prevalent in this thread.

If there was a cubbyhole, and other students were allowed to light incense, on a opt out volunteer basis. My conscience would not be offended, but I would keep my silence in criticism of other's beliefs.

If outside of class I were pressured into a criticism of my fellow students beliefs, I would remain silent. Even if I have a personal opinion that opposes their beliefs.

Okay. To my mind, it would largely defeat the purpose to have it as an optional aspect... it's either there (as an integral, important aspect of the class), or it's not. And, if it's not, then there's no reason to have it there as an option. It'd be like having an optional synagogue, or church confessional, or mosque in the dojo.

I am there to train in the martial art of karate... not critique religious beliefs of others. And its their own life, and path to walk.

Okay. But the point is that much of karate (and even more so other, more natively Japanese arts) is religious in it's structure, themes, concepts, ideals, and make-up... to train in it is to engage in religious activity.

At minimum I would offer prayers that Christ would provide salvation for them, and awaken them to their condition.

And if asked by a fellow students, outside of a class session, outside of the dojo... I would openly share the gospel, and the impact of Christ on my life.

Okay. I will say that little to none of this is anything to do with my comments... so I'm not sure what you're finding in my words to agree with here, unless this is your tangent...

But I don't believe Christian martial artists ever need to evangelize in class, in fact, that would be imho inappropriate.

But there is no contradiction between being a follower of Christ, and a practicing jma martial artist, if one treads carefully.
/bow

Yeah... so... the issue isn't so much about there being a contradiction... my point was simply to make it clear that, no matter what someone chooses to believe about the bowing (to the kamiza in class), it is religious. That only becomes a concern if it's a concern to the person...

The thing is, much of your post doesn't actually take into account what I was saying... so I'm not sure you got it well enough to agree completely with me there...

I would agree. When someone sneezes even some atheists I know say "god bless you" on reflex. When you speak of "breaking bread" with someone the reference has its origin in the Gospel of Matthew. So many things in life have an origin that is somehow related to religion it isn't funny. That doesn't mean the statements or rituals still maintain their religious meaning.

Except we're not talking about something "based in religion", we're talking about something that is, actually, genuinely, a religious ritual. It's not based in Shinto, it is a Shinto ritual. It always has been... it just didn't need to be explained to the Japanese who understood it from having the same shrines in their homes, and it wasn't explained to Westerners because it was just so intrinsically a part of the whole thing that, to separate it out would be like removing three quarters of the ingredients of a cake... sure, you still have milk and eggs, but you no longer have a cake... people just had the cake without knowing what went into it.

This isn't to say that you should make someone do something against their religious beliefs. Only to say that the meaning of certain things change overtime and become formalized secular rituals, or can be done to simply show respect to another vs one that is showing adherence to an article of faith.

Yeah, you shouldn't make anyone do anything against their religion, provided others aren't infringed or endangered of course, but the point is that this is not a case of something having had it's meaning changed, it's a case of something not having it's meaning understood or made clear.

As an example I went to a Synagogue a few times with a girl I dated many years ago. I wore a kippa out of respect even though I was raised Catholic. If I went to a Mosque I would take off my shoes.

And, due to the religious reasons for each of those behaviours, you would be engaging in the religious practices of each of those religions in those cases.

I'd say that there is a major difference between the historical origin of something and its current meaning.

I would agree if that's what we were talking about... but we're not talking about something that has developed out of a historical origin... we're talking about something that is now.

It's the intent behind an action which makes it religious or not.

This, I disagree with... in a way.

The action itself is religious... yes, the action is associated with, and designed to express the intent, the action is a big part of it. Making the Sign of the Cross is an action... and is a religious action, no matter your intent. This is actually the heart of the issue that some have... the action itself is part of, or completely, a religious ritual. To take part in the action is to take part in a religious act... which, again, is why I am with Paul with his potential student that he showed out.

I celebrate Christmas. I am not a Christian. What I celebrate is a secular holiday of good will and gift giving which happens to share the date, name and some of the pagan-derived window dressing as the religious holiday my Christian friends celebrate. (Interesting philosophical/theological question - if a Christian celebrates Christmas but is internally focused primarily/entirely on the gifts and the pagan-derived pageantry rather than on the birth of Christ, are they truly carrying out a Christian religious practice?)

If you celebrate Christmas, it's religious... whether you partake in the religious side (internally) or not. I mean... holidays are literally "Holy Days"... is this forgotten?

Likewise, if a Karateka bows to a picture of the founder and claps his hands out of tradition, without any concern for or belief in spirits, is he or she practicing Shintoism? I would say no.

Yes. Yes, they are. Or, at least, they are taking part in a Shinto religious ritual.

This is very different from the nature of a cow. Regardless of your attitude towards a cow - whether you see it as a sacred animal, a pet, or a tasty meal - it's still a hooved quadruped made out of meat.

No, the difference you're talking about there is the value placed on the cow... in all cases, it's a cow. Same with the Shinto ritual. It's a Shinto ritual. No matter the value you put on it, whether you acknowledge it or not, it remains a Shinto ritual.

The cow stays a cow... and a Shinto ritual stays a Shinto ritual.

The next question is, does a Karateka's practice become less valuable or meaningful if he or she doesn't share in or care about the religious beliefs of the art's founders? Once again, I would say no. If you view Karate as just a vehicle for transmitting the cultural values of the original practitioners, I suppose you might disagree. Nevertheless, there are millions of Karate practitioners around the world who find value in their practice, even if they have brought their own meaning to the cultural trappings and rituals which have been carried along with the art.

Sure... but the issue isn't what they bring in, it's what they ignore that's already present. Thing is, I haven't said anything about someone's practice being more of less valuable... I've simply spoken about what the reality is... and the reality is that a religious ritual is a religious ritual, no matter how it's observed.

Related to this thread, if you think you need to act like you're Japanese to really learn karate, fine. But that's not a universally held belief. There's room for other opinions.

And where has anyone even suggested that you needed to act like you're Japanese to really learn karate? What has been said (by me) is that the rituals, such as the bowing to the kamiza, seen in many traditional dojo, are definitively religious in every sense... and that, if you're denying that, you're denying yourself a large proportion of the way the art is structured and designed... as well as the reasons for it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, it's religious in fact... not in background. It is specifically, intentionally, and definitively religious... it has never shied away from that, it has never removed itself from that. It'd be like saying going to Church, and attending Midnight Mass at Christmas is "religious in background", just because not everyone who is there are even Christian (some are there out of a sense of social conformity, some are simply following what their friends or family does, regardless of personal beliefs, and so on)... but the fact remains that it is a religious ceremony/act... as is the bowing to the kamiza in class. Regardless of the individuals personal beliefs.

Oh, and for the record, there isn't really any religious aspect to a Christmas tree... to some of the ornaments adorning it, yeah... but not the tree itself. That comes from something else...

No, it would be like going to an event where people genuflect to the front of the room in a non-religious context, not inside a church. Nobody - quite literally nobody - I have trained with is Shinto, or sees bowing to the front of the dojo as anything religious. Therefor, the intent (in that usage) is not religious. It was originally, and probably still is in some places (I would assume the religious intent survives in Japan, at least).

It was religious, but no longer is in some contexts. For most of us, it is no more religious than looking at a photo of a hand father who left us the nice house we live in, and saying, "Thanks, Grandad!"

As for the Christmas tree, it actually is most likely derived from a Viking worship, though some of the names and rituals in some languages appear to be linked to ancient Celtic religious practice. I doubt anyone in the US is worshiping Balder when they put one up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, the difference you're talking about there is the value placed on the cow... in all cases, it's a cow. Same with the Shinto ritual. It's a Shinto ritual. No matter the value you put on it, whether you acknowledge it or not, it remains a Shinto ritual.

The cow stays a cow... and a Shinto ritual stays a Shinto ritual.

I think you have the analogy a bit off, Chris. In some contexts, the cow is sacred (religious). In others, it is a food source. In some contexts the bow is a religious ritual, in others it is a show of respect. The cow is always a cow, and the bow is always a bow.

 

[Steve]

Chris, others. Many others. Have said exactly what I've said. If you don't understand my posts, look at the several,others you have chosen not to respond to, which express the same idea as I have. Maybe they were more clear.

Your analogy just isn't a good one. It happens. Let it go.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, it would be like going to an event where people genuflect to the front of the room in a non-religious context, not inside a church. Nobody - quite literally nobody - I have trained with is Shinto, or sees bowing to the front of the dojo as anything religious. Therefor, the intent (in that usage) is not religious. It was originally, and probably still is in some places (I would assume the religious intent survives in Japan, at least).

And my point is that doesn't matter... it is a religious (Shinto) ritual.

It was religious, but no longer is in some contexts. For most of us, it is no more religious than looking at a photo of a hand father who left us the nice house we live in, and saying, "Thanks, Grandad!"

Yeah, doesn't matter. It's still a religious ritual, whether you observe that or not. It can not be religious to you (and your observation), but that doesn't change the fact that it's a religious ritual... and anyone whose religion forbids them from taking part in other religions rituals and practices should be aware of that.

As for the Christmas tree, it actually is most likely derived from a Viking worship, though some of the names and rituals in some languages appear to be linked to ancient Celtic religious practice. I doubt anyone in the US is worshiping Balder when they put one up.

There's a number of theories as to the origin of the Christmas tree... none of which are related to Christmas... which was my point.

I think you have the analogy a bit off, Chris. In some contexts, the cow is sacred (religious). In others, it is a food source. In some contexts the bow is a religious ritual, in others it is a show of respect. The cow is always a cow, and the bow is always a bow.

No, that's again a value placed on the cow. As you say, some will see it as sacred, some purely as a food source, others as a financial resource... but it's always a cow. Same thing... the Shinto ritual isn't the bow... the bow is part of the ritual... and the ritual is always a Shinto ritual, no matter what the religious bent of the person performing it is.

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris, others. Many others. Have said exactly what I've said. If you don't understand my posts, look at the several,others you have chosen not to respond to, which express the same idea as I have. Maybe they were more clear.

Your analogy just isn't a good one. It happens. Let it go.

Steve, I understand your posts. Thing is, none of you are looking at what is actually being said... you're all looking purely at a single physical action, which is not what's going on. I get that none of you are Shinto-ists... and that this is a bit outside your wheelhouse. That's why I'm trying to explain it. It doesn't seem to be hitting, though... which isn't the fault of the analogy, frankly, it's that this is so far outside of what you recognise and know, that it's not something any of you are able to get your heads around.

The bowing ceremony is a Shinto ritual. That's it. It doesn't matter if you call it something else, if you acknowledge it or not, or anything else... it's still a Shinto ritual. A bow all by itself? Yeah, probably not... but the act of bowing to the kamiza? That's Shinto... no matter what the religious beliefs of the person are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And my point is that doesn't matter... it is a religious (Shinto) ritual.



Yeah, doesn't matter. It's still a religious ritual, whether you observe that or not. It can not be religious to you (and your observation), but that doesn't change the fact that it's a religious ritual... and anyone whose religion forbids them from taking part in other religions rituals and practices should be aware of that.



There's a number of theories as to the origin of the Christmas tree... none of which are related to Christmas... which was my point.



No, that's again a value placed on the cow. As you say, some will see it as sacred, some purely as a food source, others as a financial resource... but it's always a cow. Same thing... the Shinto ritual isn't the bow... the bow is part of the ritual... and the ritual is always a Shinto ritual, no matter what the religious bent of the person performing it is.

Okay, you're ignoring the points I'm making. I'll just disagree with you and leave it at that.

 

[John Brewer]

I guess I should have used a comma in that sentence. This thread was someone asking about our organization, not about whether we bow or not. Hopefully that is clearer. I study Kenpo as it was taught to me. We bow to each other out of respect, that's it.

"I'm pretty sure this thread was someone asking about our organization not bowing. That being said we bow in class out of respect. Some pretty funny comments in the thread though."

Hmm... no, the thread wasn't specifically about your organisation bowing or not... there was a side issue of whether or not it was approaching religious reverence (in other arts), but that's something different... that said, you bow in class? Where does that come from? And do you know why it is done (not your own reasons... you've adopted the practices of something else for your own group, but do you understand what those practices are? That's my question here...)?

 

[Steve]

Chris, if you were simply saying that this particular ritual is a Shinto ritual and if you are doing it, you are doing a Shinto ritual, there would be a lot less reaction to your posts. This is pretty straightforward: "The bowing ceremony is a Shinto ritual. That's it. It doesn't matter if you call it something else, if you acknowledge it or not, or anything else... it's still a Shinto ritual." When I went to a Lutheran Church for service, there is no question that I'm participating in Lutheran rituals.

When you extend that pretty straightforward point further, suggesting that, by removing the Shinto worship from the training, you are studying a shell of a system, it suggests you are making a larger point. You say things like, "[if] you genuinely remove all of the religious influences from the practice of Japanese martial arts, you end up with a shell of the actual system... as it permeates and influences far more of the system than most realize."

I think there's room to distinguish between tradition and religion, largely to do with intent. There are karate dojos all over the USA and Europe that have removed Shinto worship entirely from their schools, even if they honor the traditional trappings of the religion.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

And my point is that doesn't matter... it is a religious (Shinto) ritual.

Chris is correct in this aspect. It doesn't matter what you or I think it is a religious Shinto ritual.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Chris is correct in this aspect. It doesn't matter what you or I think it is a religious Shinto ritual.

The ritual is religious. The practice of it need not be.