Okay, I have a chance to get back to this, and there's a number of things that I feel need to be clarified... mainly as I feel most are coming at this from exactly the wrong cultural perspective, and are missing what is actually being said.
But first...
It's possible that it's because your analogies kind of suck. Nah. You're right. It couldn't be you. You use so many words and speak with such authority, it would be inconceivable.
Grow up, Steve. Frankly, you have, yet again, missed the point, and not understood the analogy, as you can't grasp the actual message in the first place. But how about you simply ask for clarification instead of being, well, you?
So then... yeah. You were talking about karate. Other stuff, too. But yeah. Karate.
Nice of you to think you understand what my understanding of Japanese arts are, Steve, but no, karate was folded into what I was talking about, but nowhere near to the degree of Aikido and Judo (and other definitively Japanese arts... Karate is more influenced by Taoism than Shinto, as it's more derived from Chinese approaches, and the art is a recent transplant into Japan, rather than being an expression of the Japanese culture itself). So no, not karate in that sense.
Okay. So, broad strokes here, are you suggesting that the idea of homage to previous generations is a uniquely Shinto thing, or are you saying that bowing to the picture on the wall before and after each Karate (or whatever) class is uniquely Shinto?
No, you're looking in the wrong direction... I'm not saying it's uniquely Shinto, I'm saying that (in the case of bowing to the front of the dojo) it's specifically Shinto. It's not anything else. It's not "going through the motions"... it's not "a series of actions"... it's not even just a matter of "paying respect"... honestly, it's not even simply "derived from Shinto"... it is Shinto.
Honestly, it tickles my funny bone that you are using a sport analogy. That, with your history of sport vs street vs self defense, your first turn is to a sport analogy.
What are you talking about? Do you get how analogies work? Do you understand that this is nothing to do with that debate/discussion at all?
But, yeah. The sport analogy doesn't work because you are mixing up physical, tangible, demonstrable skill with a strictly spiritual pursuit. A more correct analogy is that karate (or whatever) never applied is like tennis without a racquet. Fighting skills never applied in a fight are like playing Wii tennis. You're going through the motions, but who knows if the skills are transferable?
Again, you're looking at things that aren't a part of this at all... it's got nothing at all to do with "application"... that's a completely different concept and idea... and I have no idea where you got the idea that this is even anything to do with that.
No, it's really not like this. Your analogy is just.. .terrible, Chris. Come on. It's more like a vegetarian eating a tofurkey burger.
No, it's really not. To stretch your incorrect analogy, it's like the vegetarian eating a burger, but trying to tell themselves that it's this tofurkey abomination you describe. They're still eating a burger, no matter what they tell themselves... which is the point.
It's more akin to the Brazilians taking a uniquely Japanese art, discarding the stuff they didn't need and building on what they did. Is BJJ a Japanese art? I'd say that it is not, but it's important to remember that it is derived from Japan.
What?? Steve, this makes no sense, and has nothing to do with the idea that the bowing in a Japanese art is a ritual taken from a native Japanese religious form known as Shinto... I don't even know where to start with the tangents you think you're seeing here...
In the same way, when a Christian celebrates Easter or Christmas, they are celebrating a Christian holiday even if we know that the timing and some of the rituals are of pagan origin.
No, it's not. You're conflating the origins of rituals with the rituals themselves. A Christian following the rituals of Christianity is following the rituals of Christianity... by the same token, a non-Christian following the rituals of Christianity is following the rituals of Christianity... even if they don't personally believe in the tenets or ideals, or even doctrine of the religion itself. This will come up again a few times, by the way...
I'm pretty sure this thread was someone asking about our organization not bowing. That being said we bow in class out of respect. Some pretty funny comments in the thread though.
Hmm... no, the thread wasn't specifically about your organisation bowing or not... there was a side issue of whether or not it was approaching religious reverence (in other arts), but that's something different... that said, you bow in class? Where does that come from? And do you know why it is done (not your own reasons... you've adopted the practices of something else for your own group, but do you understand what those practices are? That's my question here...)?
Very much my opinion on the matter. I am a heathen raised in a family of heathens. But my parents thought it was important that we understand at least some of what most everyone around us believed. So, as a kid, I went to a Catholic school for a few years, as well as a Lutheran school. I participated in the rituals and devotions and prayers, and don't think too much about it one way or the other. While I have no doubt that some of the other kids were actively worshipping, others, like myself, were simply, respectfully participating.
One can go to an Aikido school and mimic the motions out of respect, without moving into the category of worship.
A few things to realise here, though... even if all that you do is "simply mimic the motions", you are still engaging in the religious ritual... if you make the Sign of the Cross, it's a religious gesture/action, even if you aren't Christian yourself... same with any other religious action. And the act of bowing, whether you observe the religious realities of it or not, is a religious ritual.
Secondly, there is a misapplication of terminology here... there isn't a case of "worship" the same way there is in Western religions...
But the larger issue, I think, is one that I believe Chris Parker is trying to raise. Or maybe I don't understand him. But I THINK he's suggesting that if you aren't worshipping and are just going through the motions, you aren't REALLY training in that art. I'm a guy who doesn't like the idea of bowing to O Sensei, and won't do it... is it impossible for me to learn aikido? Seems like Chris Parker is saying yes, I might train something, but it wouldn't be Aikido.
Or maybe I have it all wrong.
Yeah, you have it all wrong.
I'm saying that, no matter what you think you're doing, when you're engaging in the activity of bowing to the kamiza, you are engaging in a Shinto ritual. That's it. If you have a religious issue in engaging in the practices of another religion, be aware of this. You are, whether aware of it or not, engaging in the religious practice of Shinto.
The latter comment (regarding the lack of aspects of a tennis court in playing tennis, which I think is where you got these ideas from) is a little different... what I'm saying there is that if you genuinely remove all of the religious influences from the practice of Japanese martial arts, you end up with a shell of the actual system... as it permeates and influences far more of the system than most realise.
I would argue that it's religious in background. That doesn't mean it's still religious. Much of the "secular" side of Christmas is a hold-over from pagan traditions of the Yule. It's not religious anymore for most people (I certainly have no religious connection to a Christmas tree), though that's where it came from.
No, it's religious in fact... not in background. It is specifically, intentionally, and definitively religious... it has never shied away from that, it has never removed itself from that. It'd be like saying going to Church, and attending Midnight Mass at Christmas is "religious in background", just because not everyone who is there are even Christian (some are there out of a sense of social conformity, some are simply following what their friends or family does, regardless of personal beliefs, and so on)... but the fact remains that it is a religious ceremony/act... as is the bowing to the kamiza in class. Regardless of the individuals personal beliefs.
Oh, and for the record, there isn't really any religious aspect to a Christmas tree... to some of the ornaments adorning it, yeah... but not the tree itself. That comes from something else...
I'd just tell them it's only worship if you're worshiping.
And again, that means something different in a Western sense to what is meant/intended in Eastern philosophies and belief systems.
I have no problem bowing to a picture. It's weird to me - just a different starting ritual than I'm used to - but I've done it when attending seminars at dojos in Ueshiba's Aikido, and when visiting some.
And that's fine... unless you grew up with a lot of these concepts, they can seem very weird, especially to a Western sensibility... however, again, if there are religious concerns, you really should be aware that you'd be participating in a religious act. If you have no religious concerns, of course, it doesn't matter so much.
Remember that many in Japan have Shinto shrines in their own house... they're brought up surrounded by the rituals and trappings of Shinto and Buddhist festivities... the same way we are with Judeo-Christian ones. They are just part of the cultural environment... and have an influence on much of the culture itself, as religion plays a role in moral and ethical guidance for the group as well as the individual.
One of the few times I find myself in complete agreement with you.
Well.... that's nice of you to say... but, reading through your post, I'm not so sure you do agree so much...
I am a Kyu belt within a Okinawan Karatedo, and at the Dojo its very stripped down. Almost Zen in its austerity.
That's a separate thing, really... yes, the design of a dojo is highly influenced by religious buildings and concepts, but the idea of "zen austerity" is something different, and specific to a particular approach to Buddhism... for the record.
But, we have our bows... oh yeah we do.
Okay... so the questions are... what bows do you have? And why do you have them? Where do they come from?
As I am a Christian, but an atypical one at that, I don't feel troubled in my conscience with regard to a juxtaposition of opposing beliefs.
There are none.
Okay, cool. As said, if there aren't any religious concerns, then it's all good.
There are some issues that are not fundamental. And a few that are.
The Trinity, the virgin birth, the sinless life, substituionary death and resurrection, that salvation is a free gift of God, not earned by works...
I will die on that hill, I cannot surrender those things.
Okay. Good example of personal religious expression and belief.
But..
If my school added a cubbyhole shrine with a statue of Buddha, and required me to burn incense to it, and bow before it... I would have to exit from training there.
And this would be a good example of expressing your religious beliefs, and adhering to them. The catch is, in many schools, there is a lot of activity which is the equivalent to this, without people recognising it... I mean, even when there is a little statue, and a bow... people dismiss it as not religious, as it's not part of their religion... which is missing the point... and fairly prevalent in this thread.
If there was a cubbyhole, and other students were allowed to light incense, on a opt out volunteer basis. My conscience would not be offended, but I would keep my silence in criticism of other's beliefs.
If outside of class I were pressured into a criticism of my fellow students beliefs, I would remain silent. Even if I have a personal opinion that opposes their beliefs.
Okay. To my mind, it would largely defeat the purpose to have it as an optional aspect... it's either there (as an integral, important aspect of the class), or it's not. And, if it's not, then there's no reason to have it there as an option. It'd be like having an optional synagogue, or church confessional, or mosque in the dojo.
I am there to train in the martial art of karate... not critique religious beliefs of others. And its their own life, and path to walk.
Okay. But the point is that much of karate (and even more so other, more natively Japanese arts) is religious in it's structure, themes, concepts, ideals, and make-up... to train in it is to engage in religious activity.
At minimum I would offer prayers that Christ would provide salvation for them, and awaken them to their condition.
And if asked by a fellow students, outside of a class session, outside of the dojo... I would openly share the gospel, and the impact of Christ on my life.
Okay. I will say that little to none of this is anything to do with my comments... so I'm not sure what you're finding in my words to agree with here, unless this is your tangent...
But I don't believe Christian martial artists ever need to evangelize in class, in fact, that would be imho inappropriate.
But there is no contradiction between being a follower of Christ, and a practicing jma martial artist, if one treads carefully.
/bow
Yeah... so... the issue isn't so much about there being a contradiction... my point was simply to make it clear that, no matter what someone chooses to believe about the bowing (to the kamiza in class), it is religious. That only becomes a concern if it's a concern to the person...
The thing is, much of your post doesn't actually take into account what I was saying... so I'm not sure you got it well enough to agree completely with me there...
I would agree. When someone sneezes even some atheists I know say "god bless you" on reflex. When you speak of "breaking bread" with someone the reference has its origin in the Gospel of Matthew. So many things in life have an origin that is somehow related to religion it isn't funny. That doesn't mean the statements or rituals still maintain their religious meaning.
Except we're not talking about something "based in religion", we're talking about something that is, actually, genuinely, a religious ritual. It's not based in Shinto, it is a Shinto ritual. It always has been... it just didn't need to be explained to the Japanese who understood it from having the same shrines in their homes, and it wasn't explained to Westerners because it was just so intrinsically a part of the whole thing that, to separate it out would be like removing three quarters of the ingredients of a cake... sure, you still have milk and eggs, but you no longer have a cake... people just had the cake without knowing what went into it.
This isn't to say that you should make someone do something against their religious beliefs. Only to say that the meaning of certain things change overtime and become formalized secular rituals, or can be done to simply show respect to another vs one that is showing adherence to an article of faith.
Yeah, you shouldn't make anyone do anything against their religion, provided others aren't infringed or endangered of course, but the point is that this is not a case of something having had it's meaning changed, it's a case of something not having it's meaning understood or made clear.
As an example I went to a Synagogue a few times with a girl I dated many years ago. I wore a kippa out of respect even though I was raised Catholic. If I went to a Mosque I would take off my shoes.
And, due to the religious reasons for each of those behaviours, you would be engaging in the religious practices of each of those religions in those cases.
I'd say that there is a major difference between the historical origin of something and its current meaning.
I would agree if that's what we were talking about... but we're not talking about something that has developed out of a historical origin... we're talking about something that is now.
It's the intent behind an action which makes it religious or not.
This, I disagree with... in a way.
The action itself is religious... yes, the action is associated with, and designed to express the intent, the action is a big part of it. Making the Sign of the Cross is an action... and is a religious action, no matter your intent. This is actually the heart of the issue that some have... the action itself is part of, or completely, a religious ritual. To take part in the action is to take part in a religious act... which, again, is why I am with Paul with his potential student that he showed out.
I celebrate Christmas. I am not a Christian. What I celebrate is a secular holiday of good will and gift giving which happens to share the date, name and some of the pagan-derived window dressing as the religious holiday my Christian friends celebrate. (Interesting philosophical/theological question - if a Christian celebrates Christmas but is internally focused primarily/entirely on the gifts and the pagan-derived pageantry rather than on the birth of Christ, are they truly carrying out a Christian religious practice?)
If you celebrate Christmas, it's religious... whether you partake in the religious side (internally) or not. I mean... holidays are literally "Holy Days"... is this forgotten?
Likewise, if a Karateka bows to a picture of the founder and claps his hands out of tradition, without any concern for or belief in spirits, is he or she practicing Shintoism? I would say no.
Yes. Yes, they are. Or, at least, they are taking part in a Shinto religious ritual.
This is very different from the nature of a cow. Regardless of your attitude towards a cow - whether you see it as a sacred animal, a pet, or a tasty meal - it's still a hooved quadruped made out of meat.
No, the difference you're talking about there is the value placed on the cow... in all cases, it's a cow. Same with the Shinto ritual. It's a Shinto ritual. No matter the value you put on it, whether you acknowledge it or not, it remains a Shinto ritual.
The cow stays a cow... and a Shinto ritual stays a Shinto ritual.
The next question is, does a Karateka's practice become less valuable or meaningful if he or she doesn't share in or care about the religious beliefs of the art's founders? Once again, I would say no. If you view Karate as just a vehicle for transmitting the cultural values of the original practitioners, I suppose you might disagree. Nevertheless, there are millions of Karate practitioners around the world who find value in their practice, even if they have brought their own meaning to the cultural trappings and rituals which have been carried along with the art.
Sure... but the issue isn't what they bring in, it's what they ignore that's already present. Thing is, I haven't said anything about someone's practice being more of less valuable... I've simply spoken about what the reality is... and the reality is that a religious ritual is a religious ritual, no matter how it's observed.
Related to this thread, if you think you need to act like you're Japanese to really learn karate, fine. But that's not a universally held belief. There's room for other opinions.
And where has anyone even suggested that you needed to act like you're Japanese to really learn karate? What has been said (by me) is that the rituals, such as the bowing to the kamiza, seen in many traditional dojo, are definitively religious in every sense... and that, if you're denying that, you're denying yourself a large proportion of the way the art is structured and designed... as well as the reasons for it.