Understanding Wing Chun's Centre Line

[wckf92]

I have a 6 point pole setup at home.

Yeah same here. I'm an advocate of this "old school" training.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'm talking about the WC 6 and 1/2 points pole.

The "hand striking pole" that I had learned when I was 11 require that your fingers cannot hold on to the entire pole. This way, when your opponent's pole slides along your pole, his pole won't be able to hit on your fingers.

Oh, my bad. That's good.

But Wing Chun on Plum Flower poles. Center lines??

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have a 6 point pole setup at home. Maybe I just feel sympathy.

Actually you can mark on the ground, it should work the same.

I like to mark A-B on the ground as my current feet positions. I then mart A'-B' on the ground as my next feet position. I then jump from A-B into A'-B' and then back over and over. This way when I move in, I only need one hopping.

Footwork like this:

 

[Flying Crane]

Definitely! The Ten Tigers certainly knew of each other, and interacted, in each other's styles (and in fiction, they even formed a 10-man super kung fu team, basically the first Chinese Avengers). One of them was Leung Kwan, whose dynamic tension form I am mastering as we chat. He taught Wong Fei Hung the Iron Wire, that form now has numerous variations based on personal flare, but you can still spot the old, canonical stuff, compared to weird new stuff people are doing that...is definitely not the Shaolin Iron Wire of Wong Hei Hung or Lam Sai Wing.

Let's move away from animals then and focus on the Plum Flower Boxing, which obliterates (imo) the whole concept of a single centerline and is supposed to be fundamental training in Wing Chun, but probably isn't. I don't meet many Wing Chun students that have ever heard of this.

If the two Crane methods we just discussed influenced all sorts of other arts (even Okinawan...) then Plum Flower Boxing is an ever wider scale. It's a canonical Shaolin training method that made it's way into everything: CLF, Hung Ga, Bagua, Wing Chun, Five Ancestor Fist...so if you train those and never heard of it, it's yet another key to the puzzle.

Are you familiar with 5 point Plum Flower work? This is something else that seems to be missing from a lot of Wing Chun schools, but it's so fundamental you have to wonder if not, then why?? Meihuaquan is one of the most diverse styles in China, and definitely impacted Wing Chun, and it's today found in various forms in all the more modern styles, so why isn't this sort of thing taught in every Wing Chun school?

When I said Wing Chun has 1 centerline, I forgot to mention it really has this many. And many more...

This video had me at the fridge.

I guess none of this is stuff that I spend my time on. I don’t really have anything to add, in terms of Wing Chun centerline.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Actually you can mark on the ground, it should work the same.

I like to mark A-B on the ground as my current feet positions. I then mart A'-B' on the ground as my next feet position. I then jump from A-B into A'-B' and then back over and over. This way when I move in, I only need one hopping.

Footwork like this:

 

[Oily Dragon]

I guess none of this is stuff that I spend my time on. I don’t really have anything to add, in terms of Wing Chun centerline.

So much for your "Tibetan White Crane" style then.

Heh. Not even a Lion's Roar or Hop Gar note?

KUNLUN MOUNTAINS DUDE! Come on, try.

 

[APL76]

The term "pole" may be mis-used here. By definition a pole has larger diameter than a staff.

This is a pole.

View attachment 28249

I think you meant Log.

 

[Flying Crane]

So much for your "Tibetan White Crane" style then.

Heh. Not even a Lion's Roar or Hop Gar note?

KUNLUN MOUNTAINS DUDE! Come on, try.

View attachment 28258

Excuse me? So much for my Tibetan crane? What are you going on about?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Excuse me? So much for my Tibetan crane? What are you going on about?

Always something new to learn. I'm here to help you! Kunlun Mountains!

If you didn't learn Plum Flower Pole techniques in your Tibetan Crane, you missed out on a lot (of fun) but THIS material definitely ties your arts and Wing Chun centerline theory together nicely. Two professional Eastern history scholars agree. We're getting to the roots, pun intended, of the lotus.

Personally I hate plums. But Lotus root, omg...are you a fan too? This version is Korean, obviously.

 

[hunschuld]

Excuse me? So much for my Tibetan crane? What are you going on about?

He is being a schmuck trying to impress with his "deep" knowledge. Tibetan white crane, Lions Roar and Hop gar are different names for variations of the same system. In the early 80's Chen sifu, my first wing chun teacher, shared a school with one of the few acknowledged Hop Gar masters at that time, Ku sifu, who taught me Chi Gung among other things. I met experts in many styles of kung fu that would stop at the school to pay their respects

 

[Flying Crane]

He is being a schmuck trying to impress with his "deep" knowledge. Tibetan white crane, Lions Roar and Hop gar are different names for variations of the same system. In the early 80's Chen sifu, my first wing chun teacher, shared a school with one of the few acknowledged Hop Gar masters at that time, Ku sifu, who taught me Chi Gung among other things. I met experts in many styles of kung fu that would stop at the school to pay their respects

Well, I am certainly aware of the relationship between the three sisters methods that descended from Lions Roar. I just don’t see much in there to contribute on a discussion of centerline in Wing Chun. Ive already contributed to a derailment of this thread, I didn’t see good reason for doing more.

 

[Oily Dragon]

He is being a schmuck trying to impress with his "deep" knowledge. Tibetan white crane, Lions Roar and Hop gar are different names for variations of the same system.

Deep, hmm.

They're names for different systems that interconnect between places like the Kunlun Mountain ranges and southernmost China.

 

[hunschuld]

I guess none of this is stuff that I spend my time on. I don’t really have anything to add, in terms of Wing Chun centerline.

Wing Chun centerline concepts can be very deep or a very simple explanation of many varied ideas or applications. Most centerline ideas used today stem from Yip Mans simplification. There were no food stamps in Hong Kong is 1950. Yip man had to eat and his only marketable skill was wing chun. He changed or simplified many things so he could teach people to fight as fast as possible. Students winning fights= more students and it worked. Wing Chun had become by accident the martial art of the educated middle and upper class in Fatshan he now had to teach the masses so he simplified things and he stopped teaching certain things as he got older. For example early students were taught kneeling stance. He changed a move in the dummy after an early student really hurt someone in a fight using the move. You never see the original in Yip Man dummy forms now.Centerline was simplified although some students had more expanded views. So nothing is right or wrong and nothing is better just different ways of expressing. Few have the skills necessary to actually use expanded knowledge in a fight anyway.

Basic centerline starts with the original wing chun martial salute, which you never see, then the cross hands done at the opening gives another center line concepts and it goes on each form including the weapons expands on the concept including changing angles and footwork.

Plum flower footwork is in all wing chun. Training on posts or piles was lost because you have to have a yard in your school to bury them and Yip man for one did not have an out door training yard but its still there you just have to unlock it. No different than Wing chun throws. They are in every form just kinda lost because throwing = injuries unless you have the proper training set up and students are able to protect one another from injury.

 

[hunschuld]

Deep, hmm.

They're names for different systems that interconnect between places like the Kunlun Mountain ranges and southernmost China.

No, at least not 40 years ago. All from the same source.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Well, I am certainly aware of the relationship between the three sisters methods that descended from Lions Roar. I just don’t see much in there to contribute on a discussion of centerline in Wing Chun. Ive already contributed to a derailment of this thread, I didn’t see good reason for doing more.

If you want to understand what the "centerline in Wing Chun" has to do with the other arts, read "The Creation of Wing Chun" by Ben Judkins. Plum Flower Pole is right on topic, so is White Ape kung fu, Lion's Roar, Hop Ga Kuen, and every other southern family with a "Ga" in it.

The biggest fallacy promoted by kung fu students is that any arts grew up in a vacuum. None of them did, Wing Chun is practically the godchild of Tibetan animal styles. This is also a very sticky subject with Chinese folk...Tibet...etc.

 

[Oily Dragon]

No, at least not 40 years ago. All from the same source.

Historians disagree with you, bub.

Wait, that would be 1982...you've confused me.

 

[Flying Crane]

Always something new to learn. I'm here to help you! Kunlun Mountains!

If you didn't learn Plum Flower Pole techniques in your Tibetan Crane, you missed out on a lot (of fun) but THIS material definitely ties your arts and Wing Chun centerline theory together nicely. Two professional Eastern history scholars agree. We're getting to the roots, pun intended, of the lotus.

Personally I hate plums. But Lotus root, omg...are you a fan too? This version is Korean, obviously.

View attachment 28263

Of course I am familiar with what plum flower pole training is. I don’t believe I have missed out on anything. To me, this falls into the same category in which I put More Forms: interesting, probably useful if you have it (so long as it doesn’t go off the deep end and just become too much material to keep on top of) but if you don’t, you aren’t missing anything.

There are plenty of good ways, both traditional and modern, with which to train solid skills. None of them are mandatory. All of them are simply one tool among many. If your toolbox of training methods has a rich variety, then you are doing just fine. To suggest that the absence of one particular training method somehow represents a key deficit is something that I cannot agree with.

As to how this relates (or does not relate) to wing Chun centerline theory, I have no idea and as I said early, I don’t have anything to contribute. My wing Chun training was many years ago and I have not kept up on it. I’m not the expert in that field.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Of course I am familiar with what plum flower pole training is. I don’t believe I have missed out on anything. To me, this falls into the same category in which I put More Forms: interesting, probably useful if you have it (so long as it doesn’t go off the deep end and just become too much material to keep on top of) but if you don’t, you aren’t missing anything.

There are plenty of good ways, both traditional and modern, with which to train solid skills. None of them are mandatory. All of them are simply one tool among many. If your toolbox of training methods has a rich variety, then you are doing just fine. To suggest that the absence of one particular training method somehow represents a key deficit is something that I cannot agree with.

As to how this relates (or does not relate) to wing Chun centerline theory, I have no idea and as I said early, I don’t have anything to contribute. My wing Chun training was many years ago and I have not kept up on it. I’m not the expert in that field.

That's cool. I thought you said you didn't know what Plum Flower had to do with Wing Chun after the Staff form discussion between Kunlunquan and southern Crane styles. I've been going over my books all weekend long trying to be helpful.

Maybe in retrospect you'll get my jokes about Mount Kunlun, flowers, and kung fu.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you want to understand what the "centerline in Wing Chun" has to do with the other arts, read "The Creation of Wing Chun" by Ben Judkins. Plum Flower Pole is right on topic, so is White Ape kung fu, Lion's Roar, Hop Ga Kuen, and every other southern family with a "Ga" in it.

The biggest fallacy promoted by kung fu students is that any arts grew up in a vacuum. None of them did, Wing Chun is practically the godchild of Tibetan animal styles. This is also a very sticky subject with Chinese folk...Tibet...etc.

Sigh. So here I am, continuing to contribute to thread derailment.

I can only speak for myself. I don’t know what others think or don’t think, regardless of my suspicions. I know that none of this stuff formed or existed in a vacuum. That is obvious to anyone who cares to contemplate it for a minute. Human groups and cultures have intermixed and traded and shared and mingled for as long as the human species has existed. This would affect all aspects of culture, including martial methods. I have said this numerous times in the forums here, over the years. That point has never escaped me.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Sigh. So here I am, continuing to contribute to thread derailment.

I can only speak for myself. I don’t know what others think or don’t think, regardless of my suspicions. I know that none of this stuff formed or existed in a vacuum. That is obvious to anyone who cares to contemplate it for a minute. Human groups and cultures have intermixed and traded and shared and mingled for as long as the human species has existed. This would affect all aspects of culture, including martial methods. I have said this numerous times in the forums here, over the years. That point has never escaped me.

I don't think you're derailing anything. The topic is "understanding", that's not limited to how any one of us trained in particular. That's a rich historial fabric you and I are both a part of.

If we really wanted to boil the ocean about lines, we could start discussing Chinese geomancy. I'd prefer to stick to kung fu.