Underbelts Correcting A Black Belt

[MJS]

Saw this on another forum. The OP there, titled the thread "Why I believe Kyu ranks should not correct or advise black belts." The OP had said that he had heard some black belts saying that they appreciated having an extra set of eyes watching them, when doing kicks, punches, kata, etc. Apparently they don't mind if they're getting this info. from someone who really knows what they're talking about or not.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Would you mind someone who wasn't a black belt, correcting you or telling you that you're not doing something right?

I remember a few years back during an Arnis seminar, I was working with a guy who was fairly new. I was a brown belt at the time. We were working some drills, techs, etc. He was doing something wrong, and I was attempting to correct him. Given the fact that I was a higher rank, had been training much longer, etc, and knew that he was in fact wrong, I saw this to be ok. He went on to tell me that I was incorrect and that his way was the right way. Rather than keep going back and forth, I flagged over one of the black belts. Needless to say, the BB told him I was right. I said nothing but gave him the 'I told ya so' look.

Now under normal circumstances, normal defined for *me* as not being an *** and just training and sharing info., I usually accept comments. Ex: I've gone to many seminars/camps, where although I'm training with people in the same art, these people come from different schools, so yeah, its very possible that someone may say, and they have many times, "Hey, this is the way we do this at our school." So in the end, you're interacting with people, and learning new things, vs. being told, "NO!! You're wrong!!!" IMO, theres a difference between the 2. If I'm teaching a technique to lower belts, they should IMO, do as they're told. 9 times out of 10, whenever I teach, I show the textbook version, meaning the way it was taught to me, the way its done for the curriculum, and then I may show variations. If someone has a question on a tech., I'm always happy to answer, though there've been some cases, when, in an effort to not use up the entire class, answering one question, I'll work with the person afterwards. But I dont feel that someone who has no idea what they're doing, should correct, or attempt to correct someone who's been doing the art longer.

Anyways, looking forward to hearing other opinions.

 

[Flying Crane]

sometimes people who SHOULD know better, don't. I guess it can be hard to hear it from someone who is ranked below you.

There's a lot of "it depends" in the scenario.

 

[ATC]

I have seen many black belt be wrong and many lower ranks be correct. Anyone can be wrong about something. But the question is not if you are right or wrong it is should a lower rank correct you regardless. Why not? If you are truly wrong then how do you correct that, and how are you to learn. I learn everyday from my lower ranks, as well as my kids and so on. I cannot know everything.

 

[Gemini]

The short version, yes. If a junior belt is correcting you because you are wrong, then you have to accept the correction. Worse, is someone who won't accept a correction when they're wrong and will continue to do it wrong to save face. Please! No on walks on water, though many think they do. No one knows all. No one is without mistakes. Anyone who thinks themselves otherwise needs to get over their ego. The first time I was corrected by a junior student, I didn't handle it well for the reasons listed above. Fortunately, it isn't something that has happened to often, but it has happened; and probably will again. I've seen senior students here on this board exclaim things that junior students have disproven. The simple solution is, if you don't want to be corrected, just don't ever do anything wrong. Simple! On the other hand, if you do get corrected by junior students beyond the rare occasion, maybe it's time for some self reflection on your own knowledge and/or capabilities.

As for correcting junior students that don't want to listen, well, that's another topic.

 

[puunui]

I remember a few years back during an Arnis seminar, I was working with a guy who was fairly new. I was a brown belt at the time. We were working some drills, techs, etc. He was doing something wrong, and I was attempting to correct him. Given the fact that I was a higher rank, had been training much longer, etc, and knew that he was in fact wrong, I saw this to be ok. He went on to tell me that I was incorrect and that his way was the right way. Rather than keep going back and forth, I flagged over one of the black belts. Needless to say, the BB told him I was right. I said nothing but gave him the 'I told ya so' look.

I hardly go to seminars, but when I attended the Kukkiwon instructor course, there was a person who was much lower ranked than me. We had just covered a particular form in class, and some of us stayed late to practice. I saw her and politely approached her and made a small comment about the instructor having just gone over that, and she got angry. Later, that form was on our test, she did it the way her instructor taught her, and the head examiner stopped the test, stood up and lectured the entire group about how people clearly did not understand what the movements were about, and proceeded to demonstrate step by step the exact sequence that I had tried to explain to that lady. I believe that the chief examiner was particularly upset because he was the main one to design that form.

But after that, I tend to not to try to correct anyone at a seminar, unless asked. If a junior tried to correct me at a seminar, I would simply say thank you and keep going. We are only there for a very short time at a seminar so I think my time is best spent listening carefully and doing it the way that the seminar instructor wants it done.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The color of ones belt, nor the number of stripes makes one infallible. A white belt could have much to offer...

 

[MAist25]

I have no problem with it as long as it isn't done in a disrespectful manner. In the military you wouldn't stand up and tell an officer he's all jacked up in front of his guys. Same for a black belt, just out of respect for their rank you shouldn't start correcting them in front of everyone. Pull them off to the side and respectfully say that they made a mistake, and if they are a black belt of any sort of decent quality then they should understand what they did wrong and thank you for the correction. If you have to spend time to try and explain or teach them something they should already know then... I think we all know what kind of black belt they are

 

[mxav]

If we had a dispute over correct technique in my class, we usually call a blackbelt over for a ruling, thats standard MO where I come from.

 

[Twin Fist]

any BB that would be offended isnt worthy of the title

here is the deal, if the under belt is wrong, show him why he is wrong

if he is right, learn from it

its a win win

 

[shihansmurf]

Well, the way I see things is that we nailed the only perfect man to a tree a couple of thousand years ago. Since I aint Him, I make mistakes, errors, and assorted misteps.

I fully expect to be corrected if appropriate. My belt rank doesn't mean that I am above reproach.

I expect said correction to be done politely. I expect that irrespective of who is doing it, junior to me or senior.

Its awfully easy to confuse belt rank with knowledge. One is immensely valuable, the other just a bit of cloth. Best not to get too enamored of it and the status it grants.

Just a thought,
Mark

 

[Tez3]

When people say they don't mind being corrected by a belt lower than them exactly which belt would the cut off line be for accepting criticism? Would they happily take criticism from someone who has just earned their second belt for example and had exactly ten weeks entire martial arts training who came up and told you that the technique you knew you were doing correctly was in fact pants?

 

[puunui]

TA white belt could have much to offer...

I have seen white belts like that, who felt they had something to offer. They usually have some sort of training in a different style, and enjoy showing everyone how they do it in style x or style y. Those types generally don't last too long, because the students in general come to the school to learn what the school is teaching, and not what they do in x or y. When you are trying to teach or learn Taeguek 1 Jang, it doesn't help when someone is taking class time to explain how style x's first form looks like or what the focus is for that. I would think it is important to learn how to do Taeguek 1 Jang, the way that school does it instead.

 

[jks9199]

There's different ways to present the criticism. It's one thing for a white or yellow belt to look at a black belt and say "That's wrong! That's not how you do it!" It's a different thing entirely for the same person to say "Master X did that move with this step; is there a reason your doing it differently" or "Are you sure you're supposed to do..." The second lets me check myself, or explain why what I did is different; the first can easily be seen as disrespectful. And there's a difference between a guy on his first class and someone nearing testing for black belt... It can also make a difference if it's just "that drill is done in this sequence"... I don't always remember the most recent re-ordering of some drills... and may trust or rely on the lower belts to remember that sequence for me.

Different settings can also be a factor. If I'm learning something like a new form in a mixed group, it's no big deal for anyone who got the sequence down quicker to share in helping others get it down.

 

[Cyriacus]

Heres the thing: When You first learn something, its a thing of intricate detail. When You get good at it, its just a movement. Its easy to neglect small details.

 

[dancingalone]

I have seen white belts like that, who felt they had something to offer. They usually have some sort of training in a different style, and enjoy showing everyone how they do it in style x or style y. Those types generally don't last too long, because the students in general come to the school to learn what the school is teaching, and not what they do in x or y. When you are trying to teach or learn Taeguek 1 Jang, it doesn't help when someone is taking class time to explain how style x's first form looks like or what the focus is for that. I would think it is important to learn how to do Taeguek 1 Jang, the way that school does it instead.

Yeah, those types can be annoying when you have a specific lesson you'd like to teach. Prior experience can be a good thing, but the student shouldn't let his ego and desire for attention distract others from learning what they are paying in money and/or time to learn.

As for the main topic at hand, I don't mind accurate correction from a junior when I likewise am a student taking the lesson from a teacher. If I am teaching the class, I'd normally prefer that the student wait for a lull before seeking clarification on why I am showing something 'wrong', but interruptions can be instructional as well so long as it is not a habit.

 

[puunui]

As for the main topic at hand, I don't mind accurate correction from a junior when I likewise am a student taking the lesson from a teacher. If I am teaching the class, I'd normally prefer that the student wait for a lull before seeking clarification on why I am showing something 'wrong', but interruptions can be instructional as well so long as it is not a habit.

Having said that, I have in the past been "politely" corrected about some point or thing. No problemo. Things like not remembering the korean terminology for something, because we don't use that specific term, or whatever. I once visited a school I hadn't gone to in ten years and they changed all the coaching slang over the time period. I had to constantly ask the little red belt sitting next to me, "what does that mean" or "what does this mean". People have their own slangs now to stuff, so when the coach yells it out, the athlete knows but not the other side.

 

[MJS]

And then of course we have people at seminars, who, after we were all just taught something and told to practice, the person I'm working with, finds it necessary to show me something totally different. Umm...no....I'm not here to learn your method, which really has nothing to do with what was just taught...lol.

Something else to consider...how does the underbelt know whats wrong and whats right, if they dont know what the inst is teaching? Its also possible that you could have 2 insts. at the same school, teach the same tech, slightly different. Yeah, I know, one would think that everyone would be on the same page, but sometimes thats not the case. This kind of goes back to what I said earlier, when you have 2 people from the same art, but different schools.

 

[puunui]

There's different ways to present the criticism. It's one thing for a white or yellow belt to look at a black belt and say "That's wrong! That's not how you do it!" It's a different thing entirely for the same person to say "Master X did that move with this step; is there a reason your doing it differently" or "Are you sure you're supposed to do..."

I am not in the habit of correcting my seniors, but sometimes if I am unclear on a point, I will generally inquire in the form of a question, in order to seek clarification. That seems to work the best, saves face for the senior, let's the senior know the junior knows how to behave, all kinds of good things like that. Like others have said, it is not in the what, it is in the how, and to a certain extent, the when. Flying off the handle in an accusatory fashion towards a senior never really brings the type of results for the junior that it could, especially in the long term.

 

[puunui]

And then of course we have people at seminars, who, after we were all just taught something and told to practice, the person I'm working with, finds it necessary to show me something totally different. Umm...no....I'm not here to learn your method, which really has nothing to do with what was just taught...lol.

Right. You go to a seminar, you are there to absorb what the seminar teacher is offering, not what the participants have to offer. It is best to focus on what the teacher is doing, not what the senior to the front or the junior to the back is doing.

Something else to consider...how does the underbelt know whats wrong and whats right, if they dont know what the inst is teaching? Its also possible that you could have 2 insts. at the same school, teach the same tech, slightly different. Yeah, I know, one would think that everyone would be on the same page, but sometimes thats not the case. This kind of goes back to what I said earlier, when you have 2 people from the same art, but different schools.

I think your focus is on seminars, and I again agree, it's best to do it the way the seminar teacher does it. I have heard stories of some participants who stand up and actually argue with the seminar instructors about some point.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I believe it depends on the circumstances. In my case, I am the head instructor at my dojang. I teach everyone in my class, and it is my job to practice what I preach. If I am wrong, then I am doing a disservice to my students. I have my assistant instructors to give me feedback, and I don't foresee a circumstance that a colored belt would be giving me criticism.

This is not to suggest that I am perfect, but there is a chain of command and etiquette to adhere to. I would never have attempted to correct one of my seniors when I was a Yugupja. Beyond that, many times students misinterpret what has been said by one teacher. I see it from time to time. Student "X" has Assistant Instructor "Y" teaching them forms one night, and the next night I have Student "X" and they swear to me that Instructor "Y" taught them to perform technique "Z" "this way." I taught Instructor "Y" and I know that they are teaching it the same way that I was taught and that I teach, but they misunderstood what Instructor "Y" was attempting to teach.

I am not infallible, but I would hope that at 5th dan I wouldn't be making the type of mistakes that a colored belt would be picking up on. It is my job to lead by example, so barring physical limitations that prevent me from performing a technique the way it should be properly executed, I don't see a situation that this would occur.

From another point of view if one of my colored belt students attempts to correct one of my 1st dans, I would still have to speak with the colored belt in private and explain why that is inappropriate. It is the senior ranks' duty to teach the black belts, and from a traditional stand point, it is disrespectful to openly critique a senior on the dojang floor. This may not be the way everyone practices, but it is the tradition that I went up through the ranks with, and I am attempting to preserve and continue the tradition that my instructors taught to me.

To make another comparison, what would happen if a company grade officer questioned or critiqued the orders a field officer he was giving them? I don't think it would go over very well.. .