Unbelievable

[SFC JeffJ]

In my experience(which of course is different from your experiences)both on the mat and outside of the dojo, wrist grabs as an attack are not trying to control your hand, but to upset your balance. Wrestlers do this quite a bit. In those cases, they let go if countered and look for a different avenue of attack.

But to tell your students that your opponent(presumably the aggressor) will hang on out of confusion so don't worry about them letting go? Intellectually lazy and completely disconnected from reality.

Jeff

 

[Chris Parker]

In my experience(which of course is different from your experiences)both on the mat and outside of the dojo, wrist grabs as an attack are not trying to control your hand, but to upset your balance. Wrestlers do this quite a bit. In those cases, they let go if countered and look for a different avenue of attack.

I think this is part of the issue here. Wrestlers are training in grip wars, where one of the ideas is to gain the optimal grip in order to effect your attack. Now, if we take that to a domestic situation, where a guy has grabbed his girlfriend's wrists, it's a very different situation. Grips, psychologically speaking, are attempts to control someone. And if they try to remove themselves from that control, it is applied harder (in many cases, not all).

But to tell your students that your opponent(presumably the aggressor) will hang on out of confusion so don't worry about them letting go? Intellectually lazy and completely disconnected from reality.

Jeff

This I agree with completely. And, as I said, I think there are reasons for that....

 

[WCman1976]

Yeah, I'm with Cryo here. There are in fact a huge range of techniques in the systems I have experience in where they do rely in the attacker keeping their grip (it should also be noted that there are other techniques for the occasion when they do let go). The reason is that, in a number of instances and for a range of attacks, they will continue to hold on.

If we look at something like weapon retention techniques, the aim is to control the use of the weapon (or ability to gain control of it), so releasing the grip is not a good idea. Alternately, simply by responding to someone gripping your wrists (as in the example above) will result in them resisting your attempts to escape... in which case they will simply grip harder. Then there are the occasions where a "panic grip" is involved, in which case the grip won't get released without a large amount of pressure or force. In fact, if the aim of the attack is to hold, then it is more likely that they will continue to hold rather than let go.

Thinking that holding on continually is not what you would do (from a common sense/logical point of view) kinda misses the point, as we are then dealing with automatic, and largely automonous physical reactions and responces, which removes the idea of conscious decision making itself.

That said, the reasons the instructor gave are, well, ridiculous. I'd suggest that they didn't really understand the reasons the technique is done themselves.

"Panic grip." I like that. I was going to say something similar, actually. In my wing chun class, my Sifu was talking about situations he had been in where someone kept holding on while he pummeled them, when the common sense thing would have been for them to simply let go! He called it a "stupid trap." LOL

 

[Gnarlie]

It used to puzzle me why some clubs focus so much on wrist grabs as a staple attack or pre attack. I'm not saying it will never happen, sure there are rare times when circumstances would be such that a wrist grab would be likely. I'm just saying that the amount of time and effort spent practicing against wrist grabs (especially those with no following attack) is disproportionate to the likelihood of their literal, exact occurrence in reality when faced with a random Jeff.*

It could be argued that wrist grabs are just a starting point from which to teach principles, that they are not meant to represent a real attack or pre-attack; that they could represent a captured striking arm, an attempted throw or arm lock, for example. They illustrate the principles that I can use to escape or create a position of advantage if part of my body is captured by an opponent. If that's the case, then training against wrist grabs could make sense, as it's often more efficient to drill the principle, rather than train a separate technique for every eventuality.

But principle drilling is only efficient and effective if the student understands that that is what they are doing, and can adapt what they have learned to every eventuality. This is unlikely because wrist grabs are not often presented as illustrating a set of principles. They are all too often presented as an actual attack, or pre attack.

A standing double wrist grab is unlikely. A double wrist pin against a wall or from a mounted position is more likely. Both arms pinned by a single grip from the mounted position is still more likely. The principles learned from practicing standing, ideal situation wrist grab releases and locks can be applied to free up an arm in these situations.

The answer to the question 'what if he lets go?' during any manipulation technique must surely be 'Fantastic, I've achieved my objective, my hands are free and I can use them to attack'.

*Random Jeff - Unknown person who appears on your wedding photos only after you get them developed. Used to represent undesirable element, has perjorative connotations.

 

[Chris Parker]

Just speaking from a Japanese arts perspective, grabs of all kinds are pretty standard, rather than striking, for a range of reasons, including cultural, and the forms of armour used in Japanese history. Grabs to wrists were primarily to prevent you from accessing your weapons. In a modern context, for men they're not as big an issue, but a female assault victim is much more likely to be grabbed, and the wrists, being put out as a defensive measure, can be a common target. It all just depends on the context, really.

 

[WingChunIan]

one of the reasons I love the Wing Chun I do is its simplicity. If you get grabbed hit 'em (preferably somwhere soft and squidgy), if they don't let go, hit 'em again if they grab both wrists hit 'em with your feet / knees / shoulder or elbow. If they let go, guess what.......
Reality against a resisting opponent doesn't allow for complex fine motor skills so multi part moves are never going to work. Leaving that to one side though the instructor in question would have been far better saying, this is what you do if they don't let go but if they then you do x,y or z. As I say it helps massively if the answer to every question is the same.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, we have a system that takes a similar approach...

Basically, if someone grabs you and tries to throw you, hit 'em.
If they grab you and try to choke you, hit 'em.
If they try to stab you with a knife or short blade, hit 'em.
If they try to cut you with a sword, hit 'em.
If they try to hit you, hit 'em.
If they walk towards you, hit 'em.
If they walk away from you, hit 'em.
If they run screaming in terror, hit 'em.
If they cower in fear, hit 'em.
If they say something about your grandmother, hit 'em.
If they are your grandmother, hit 'em.

Any questions?

 

[shesulsa]

"If you're grabbed, hit 'em."

This is not often possible when the victim is a woman and the attacker is a much larger male or when the strength is not balanced.

I've had someone strong hold my by my wrists and strong-armed me from moving my arms at all from that hold.

AND I've had someone grab me by my lower forearm in an effort to exert control over me.

Not so unbelievable.

Try talking to some victims about how they've been attacked for a REAL picture of how it happens. It isn't all just two guys brawling. The spectrum of attack and power-over is large.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, agreed, Georgia. I'm taking my seniors through their choice of traditional systems at the moment, and for my female senior, I recommended a system that deals almost exclusively with grabs, and looks at exactly those situations, mainly as that is the most likely way she would be assaulted, and I wanted to recommend something that would be the most applicable to her situation.

With regards the the "just hit 'em" system, the grabs are more to the body (throw preparation) in that one, so they don't deal with such grabs much.

 

[mook jong man]

In our lineage of Wing Chun we usually use leverage to cut down through the weakest part of their grip which is the thumb at the same time as we apply a low heel kick to the shin and a punch or palm strike to the face.

But having said that you can also apply pivoting techniques to break the grip which uses the force of the whole body against their wrist joints , or just simply collapse your arm into an elbow strike to their sternum which also can strain or break their wrists.

One important point is to always have a slight forward force in your arms so that you can quickly strike through in the event your attacker lets go of your arms.

 

[Grasshopper22]

Hahaha, oh dear.

 

[K-man]

Hahaha, oh dear.

Meaning?

 

[WingChunIan]

Well ...

I think one of the main reasons people grab another by the wrist or low forearm is to ... control their hands.

agreed but normally for a reason, ie to hit you with the other hand, to prevent you accessing a weapon / phone / help, to pull you in a given direction, to restrain you whilst a partner in crime does one of the above or commits robbery or sexual assault. The grab itself is of no consequence unless it is round your throat or your testicles, it is the threat that needs to be dealt with.

 

[WingChunIan]

"If you're grabbed, hit 'em."

This is not often possible when the victim is a woman and the attacker is a much larger male or when the strength is not balanced.

I've had someone strong hold my by my wrists and strong-armed me from moving my arms at all from that hold.

AND I've had someone grab me by my lower forearm in an effort to exert control over me.

Not so unbelievable.

Try talking to some victims about how they've been attacked for a REAL picture of how it happens. It isn't all just two guys brawling. The spectrum of attack and power-over is large.

I deal with victims alot and most of the time the physical restraint of the grip / grab has minimal involvement. The more common phenomenon is the panic at being grabbed, often followed by strength based struggling against the grab leading to failure and further panic or simply paralysis. I teach many women, many with slight builds, some of whom have had occassion to use what I teach. When you were grabbed and couldn't move at all, were you pinned to the floor or fighting an octopus? Unless either was true your human opponent only hand two hands therefore the most they can imobilise is two limbs, not withstanding physical disabilities I am assuming that you have two arms, two legs and a head and that furthermore each arm has an elbow and a shoulder, each leg has a knee and your head contains a forehead and a mouth full of teeth. Striking the nearest vulnerable point with your closest weapon is almost never not an option. Being prepared psychologically to react with fury and being willing to strike the throat, eyes, groin, knees etc as hard and as often as you can or bite the nose or anything else that presents without hesitation takes training but its an easier response to drill in than complex techniques and when the innocent little victim becomes a screaming banshee, they're very hard to hold on to.

 

[mook jong man]

It doesn't matter how strong they hold your wrists , let em.
They cannot stop you simply collapsing your arm and coming over the top of their arm with an elbow strike to their sternum.
There is too much leverage and pressure on their wrists for them to maintain their grip.

 

[Cyriacus]

It doesn't matter how strong they hold your wrists , let em.
They cannot stop you simply collapsing your arm and coming over the top of their arm with an elbow strike to their sternum.
There is too much leverage and pressure on their wrists for them to maintain their grip.

In Laymans Terms, Their own grab stops Them from being able to get away, and when Youve done some work, Theyll probably let go.

 

[mook jong man]

In Laymans Terms, Their own grab stops Them from being able to get away, and when Youve done some work, Theyll probably let go.

Well they either let go or they get their wrist broken.In a related technique you clamp both your hands over each of their hands to trap them.Then you pivot sharply from side to side and drop your elbows over their wrist joints and break both their wrists.

 

[MJS]

Hey everybody,

Been a long time since I've posted, so first off, hi to all you familiar faces, and greeting to you I don't recognize.

While visiting an old acquaintances school, I think I heard one of the biggest pieces of ******** I've come across on a dojo floor.

The instructor (the guy I know) started showing a technique to use against someone grabbing both of your wrists. Maybe not a likely attack, but whatever. He then did some very complicated motions of his arms and body and uke ended up on the ground. The ****ed up part of this was the fact in order for the technique to work, uke had to keep a hold of his wrists throughout the entire thing. Just as I was about to point this out, one of his higher ranking students asked about it. The response of the instructor was absolutely priceless.

"Your opponent will be confused about this during a fight and hang on to you." :BSmeter:

I **** you not.

Needless to say, I don't think I'll be visiting again.
'Cept maybe to poach that student who had the sense to ask about it. %-}

Jeff

Welcome back! Good to see you posting again!

As for the story...I'm not surprised, as there is alot of BS being taught. Fortunately, not everyone will fall for it, and actually question things. Interestingly enough, there are alot of locks, both empty hand and with the stick, in Arnis. Alot of the locks involving the use of the stick, are going on the assumption that the badguy will be maintaining his grip on the stick or your wrist. So sure, for training purposes, they are great locks, but if you don't have a plan b, well......

It would've been great if he had asked, "Well, what if they let go?" and see what the inst. would have had for the plan b.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hahaha, oh dear.

Meaning?

Young grasshopper here seems to read only the OP, or just the title sometimes, and makes a comment on that, regardless of how long ago it was, or where the conversation has gone from there. This appears to me to be more of the same, honestly.

 

[shesulsa]

agreed but normally for a reason, ie to hit you with the other hand, to prevent you accessing a weapon / phone / help, to pull you in a given direction, to restrain you whilst a partner in crime does one of the above or commits robbery or sexual assault. The grab itself is of no consequence unless it is round your throat or your testicles, it is the threat that needs to be dealt with.

For some, the grab itself is enough threat to address.

It doesn't matter how strong they hold your wrists , let em.
They cannot stop you simply collapsing your arm and coming over the top of their arm with an elbow strike to their sternum.
There is too much leverage and pressure on their wrists for them to maintain their grip.

Again, not taking into account the shorter reach of a slighter victim.

Well they either let go or they get their wrist broken.In a related technique you clamp both your hands over each of their hands to trap them.Then you pivot sharply from side to side and drop your elbows over their wrist joints and break both their wrists.

Ditto above.